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Airplane Brakes  
User currently offlineJAGflyer From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 3501 posts, RR: 4
Posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7020 times:

To apply brakes on the plane while landing or taxiing (wheel brakes) I always was under the impression that you step on BOTH rudder pedals at once. Is that correct?


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34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline2enginesonly From Netherlands, joined Jun 2005, 91 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7025 times:

Basically, when you step on the left pedal, all brakes on the lh main landing gear or gears will pressurized and the right pedal the right brakes ( that's how you can steer without nosewheel steering ).
When you step on both pedals all brakes will get hydraulic power.

Arjan


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17002 posts, RR: 67
Reply 2, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7017 times:

Quoting JAGflyer (Thread starter):
To apply brakes on the plane while landing or taxiing (wheel brakes) I always was under the impression that you step on BOTH rudder pedals at once. Is that correct?

2enginesonly explains it well. It should also be remembered that brakes involve toe action. Ruddder/nosewheel steering involves heel action.

Differential braking is widely used. Some smaller aircraft, expecially tail draggers, don't have wheel steering at all so it is pretty much the only way of turning on the ground.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6346 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7020 times:

Quoting JAGflyer (Thread starter):
To apply brakes on the plane while landing or taxiing (wheel brakes) I always was under the impression that you step on BOTH rudder pedals at once. Is that correct?

Not normally...you'd step on the toe portion of the rudder pedal on the side you want to apply the brakes on.

So, if you wanted to "slam on" the brakes in most aircraft, you would push down the top portion of both rudder pedals at the same time to the floor (and yes, I know different aircraft, especially light ones, use different methods for brake activation).

If I want to turn a Cessna rapidly, in as little space as possible (while taxiing of course  Wink ), I apply the toe brake on the side that I want to turn towards, and the aircraft will pivot around the main gear wheel on that side. Very useful in the run-up area.

Some light singles, like the Grumman Tiger or the Cirrus, don't have a steerable nosewheel, so you have to use differential braking to steer them while taxiing.



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User currently offlineJAGflyer From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 3501 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7003 times:

Most small aircraft I see have their rudders moving as they turn which indicates they are steering with the rudder pedals (nosewheel controled by rudder). How does the pedal work with sensing heel or toe pressure? How do you activate brakes on aircraft like C172 which have a "basic pedal" rudder.


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User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17002 posts, RR: 67
Reply 5, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6993 times:

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 4):
Most small aircraft I see have their rudders moving as they turn which indicates they are steering with the rudder pedals (nosewheel controled by rudder). How does the pedal work with sensing heel or toe pressure? How do you activate brakes on aircraft like C172 which have a "basic pedal" rudder.

The rudder pedals are linked so if you press with your heel the entire pedal slides forward and the other pedal slides back in concert. However if you press with your toe, pivoting the pedal "forward", the pedal stays in place and brakes for that side are engaged.


I should add that slamming the brakes on some taildraggers moving at speed may well mean flipping the aircraft over on its back.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6346 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6993 times:

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 4):
How does the pedal work with sensing heel or toe pressure?

It is possible to apply both heel and toe pressure to each pedal at the same time. The toe portion is spring-loaded (to return to the normal position) and pushes down on a small slave cylinder through some mechanical stuff, which in turn activates the master cylinder for the brake(s) on that side. The bottom portion of the pedal is rigged to the rudder (and nosewheel) mechanism, so when pressed on one side, the opposite pedal moves "out", and you can feel the opposite pedal moving the other way with your feet.

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 4):
How do you activate brakes on aircraft like C172 which have a "basic pedal" rudder.

Same as described in the previous posts...the C172's rudder pedals are pretty much conventional! Just push the toe portion (top) of the pedals.



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User currently offlineFlyMatt2Bermud From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 563 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6993 times:

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 4):
How do you activate brakes on aircraft like C172 which have a "basic pedal" rudder.

Movement of the pedal will affect the rudder left and right. The upper toe portion is depressed to apply brakes on the cooresponding wheel brake. Left toe applied pressure will engage the left brake and vice versa on the right peddle/brake.



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User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 60
Reply 8, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6948 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR



Because I am who I am, I feel obligated to bring up a freakish exception to the aviation norm.

Here is the standard pedal arrangement, where the pedal is hinged in the middle and the pilot presses the upper half to activate the brake:






Here is an airplane equipped with heel brakes:

http://i9.tinypic.com/2uoopw6.jpg


In this case, the pilot controls the rudder/ground steering with the upper pedals. The brakes are controlled by the smaller, floor-mounted pedals.

This has been a 2H4 Tech/Ops obscure knowledge update. Thanks for reading.





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User currently offlineN231YE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6943 times:

I was drilled by my instructors to use only pedals and rudder to steer: no brakes. But sometimes I do "cheat" and use a little differential braking to make tight turns or to correct the airplane if I swayed to far off the taxiway centerline while taxiing.

User currently offlineRalgha From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 1614 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 6908 times:

Quoting N231YE (Reply 9):
I was drilled by my instructors to use only pedals and rudder to steer: no brakes.

Your instructors should have told you to use the brakes whenever necessary, turning or otherwise. The idea is to taxi the airplane in such a way that you minimize the need for brakes, but always use them if you need them. Most GA airplanes will not make a minimum radius turn without the use of brakes.



09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
User currently offlineEssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 6905 times:

Probably every standard in aviation has been reversed by some designer at one time or another...

User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6346 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 6901 times:

Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 11):
Probably every standard in aviation has been reversed by some designer at one time or another...

Indeed! Imagine if we stuck to the Wright Brothers control system, could you imagine laying on your stomach to fly and swaying your hips  Wink

I wonder how the whole counterintuitive elevator setup (pull back to move the nose up, push forward to bring the nose down) got started...wasn't the Curtiss Pusher the first aircraft with truly "conventional" controls?



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User currently offlineEssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 6901 times:

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 12):
Indeed! Imagine if we stuck to the Wright Brothers control system, could you imagine laying on your stomach to fly and swaying your hips

Wing warping may be coming back. NASA Dryden has an F18 that rolls via wing warping vice conventional ailerons. Saves weight and complexity...


User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6346 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 6897 times:

Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 13):
Wing warping may be coming back. NASA Dryden has an F18 that rolls via wing warping vice conventional ailerons. Saves weight and complexity...

Yeah, but I'm pretty sure you won't be laying in a hip cradle to control it  Wink



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User currently offlineN231YE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 6869 times:

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 12):
I wonder how the whole counterintuitive elevator setup (pull back to move the nose up, push forward to bring the nose down) got started...wasn't the Curtiss Pusher the first aircraft with truly "conventional" controls?

As far as ailerons, Correct. What happened is that the Wrights had many patents, and were too greedy to allow Glenn Curtiss to use the wing warping design. So Curtiss came up with devices that would eventually become standard; ailerons.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 16, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 6829 times:

On B737.
Toe pressure for Brakes.Foot pressure Alternatively for steering on Ground.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineDashTrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1520 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6776 times:

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 6):
It is possible to apply both heel and toe pressure to each pedal at the same time.

Yes it is. I usually have my feet off the floor a little and apply pressure to the top of the rudder pedal. I ease the pressure off the other pedal at the same time.


User currently offlineMrChips From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 927 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6680 times:

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 8):

This has been a 2H4 Tech/Ops obscure knowledge update. Thanks for reading.

I'm gonna one-up you here - with finger brakes.

http://fileanchor.com/70393-r.jpg

On some aircraft, there are no brake pedals whatsoever - like on the Liberty XL-2 shown above. Rather, the brakes are actuated by levers between the seats. Interestingly, early Piper Cherokees had a similar system.



Time...to un-pimp...ze auto!
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 60
Reply 19, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 6647 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR




Quoting MrChips (Reply 18):
I'm gonna one-up you here - with finger brakes.

Oooo...good one. On that note, I believe some Russian aircraft have brake levers mounted on the control stick...and IIRC, some incorporate a proportioning valve in foot pedals.

In other words, the pilot uses the hand lever on the stick to apply the total braking power, and the foot pedals to distribute that braking force to either the right or left pedal.



2H4





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User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6346 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 6635 times:

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 19):
Oooo...good one. On that note, I believe some Russian aircraft have brake levers mounted on the control stick...and IIRC, some incorporate a proportioning valve in foot pedals.

Many ex-Soviet types also have pneumatic brakes...apparently hydraulic brakes have their limitations in Siberian winters  Wink



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User currently offlineMrChips From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 927 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 6611 times:

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 19):
Oooo...good one. On that note, I believe some Russian aircraft have brake levers mounted on the control stick...and IIRC, some incorporate a proportioning valve in foot pedals.

In other words, the pilot uses the hand lever on the stick to apply the total braking power, and the foot pedals to distribute that braking force to either the right or left pedal.

Forgot about that one; just about every Soviet-era fighter aircraft up to the MiG-29 and Su-27 had a braking system like that. Unfortunately, I'm fresh out of trivia regarding crazy braking systems...

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 20):
Many ex-Soviet types also have pneumatic brakes...apparently hydraulic brakes have their limitations in Siberian winters

...But I've got one on this. Due to poor cold-weather performance and poor quality control, petroleum-based hydraulic fluid was not used in most Soviet-era aircraft. Instead, they used 99% pure grain alcohol as hydraulic fluid. Needless to say, the mechanics would periodically drain off some of the "hydraulic fluid" for "chemical analysis", if you get what I'm saying... Big grin

[Edited 2006-10-14 02:31:38]


Time...to un-pimp...ze auto!
User currently offlineEricsan777 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 12 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 6584 times:

What about on Seaplanes? Does that operate a different kind of HYDRAULIC brake system? LOL!

User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 60
Reply 23, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 6561 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR



Just a bit off-topic...but still related to controlling the aircraft on the ground:

I believe the Piaggio Avanti requires the pilot to physically move a selector to switch between tiller-based nosewheel steering and pedal-based nosewheel steering.

If I remember correctly, the pilot actually has to switch during the takeoff/landing roll. In other words, after landing, he or she must reach up and select the tiller-based steering mode before turning off onto the taxiway.

I thought that was rather odd.



2H4





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User currently offlineEssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (7 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6471 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 16):
Toe pressure for Brakes.Foot pressure Alternatively for steering on Ground.
regds
MEL

Or the tiller for ground use...


25 Post contains images EridanMan : FWIW, My '67 Cherokee 140 has no toe brakes of any kind. There is just the Johnson Bar lever beside and beneath the throttle. I thought this would be
26 Post contains images KELPkid : Does it have the "toy" backseat I've heard that the back seat is practically unusable in Cherokee 140s...
27 Post contains images EridanMan : Do not dignify it by calling it a 'seat'... it is litterally nothing more than a pad and backrest sitting on the main-wing spar My Fiancee has ridden
28 FutureUApilot : The Rudder Pedals are connected by bungee cords to the main nose gear, so when you go to the runup area make sure you straighten your nose wheel. That
29 Post contains images Starlionblue : Sounds like my old Peugeot 206CC. Backseat was great for a couple of kids max age 6 or so.
30 EridanMan : The Bungee system was a Cessna Patent, Piper nosewheels are directly connected to the rudder... While this has its inconveniences, it does allow for
31 N231YE : I totally agree, my single biggest annoyance with Cessna's.
32 Post contains images KELPkid : I couldn't imagine whipping a plane around into it's tiedown by taxiing in straight or doing a 360 before takeoff (to look for traffic in the pattern
33 FutureUApilot : Ah, never thought about them Pipers... so when you check the rudder durring the runup are you physically turning the wheel on the pavement or do you
34 EridanMan : Because the wheel is directly connected to the rudder, its pedal controlled 'steering range' is substantially greater than the cessna's... Just think
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