Sponsor Message:
Aviation Technical / Operations Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
A380 Delay -- Is It Really Catia  
User currently offlineDvautier From United States, joined Oct 2006, 32 posts, RR: 3
Posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 12099 times:

I still don’t get it. Airbus says that the wire bundles did not match up because the Hamburg plant was using a different version of Catia (V4). This does not make any sense at all because the plane fitted together even though some parts were designed using the Catia V4 wireframe formulas in Germany and the other parts were made in France using volume formulas (Catia V5). This means that they did get the parts to fit because the planes are obviously flying. It also means that the wire raceways are probably also correctly sized. So why didn’t the wires fit? Changing from copper to aluminum should not be a big showstopper. Catia V4 and V5 have nothing to do with this issue so let’s stop bringing it up as a reason for the A380 delay. I am quite familiar with both Catia products. Neither version handles wiring. You need additional software tools to do this and I don’t know if it even exists let alone works with Catia. Something else is going on here that we just don’t know about.

There is another consideration that most of you seem to miss, and this is the number of connectors between bundles. When you design wiring you try to make the bundles manageable by locating the wiring panels at convenient and serviceable locations. This helps in fault isolation and replacement. But the more panels and connectors, the higher the resistance in the wire and it also generates a lot more weight and heat. If airbus decided to run vary long bundles that go across sections and not to panels they may be getting into some serious design and servicability problems. It might also explain the present mess. I suspect that they are actually redesigning some stuff.

If we could just get hold of the schematics and wire diagrams for the A380 a lot of these questions could be answered. But I suspect that these documents do not yet exist.  Smile

32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States, joined Jun 2004, 4295 posts, RR: 46
Reply 1, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 12100 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I think it might have been the design of the IFE wiring harnesses that were only affected but since I'm not there, it's only my guess.


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineN328KF From United States, joined May 2004, 5604 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 12058 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 1):
I think it might have been the design of the IFE wiring harnesses that were only affected but since I'm not there, it's only my guess.

If it were just for IFE, then the cargo variant wouldn't have been affected. I believe the flying examples have some juryrigged wiring that allows them to prove the airframe and systems, but this wiring is not the final configuration.


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11995 times:

Quoting N328KF (Reply 2):
If it were just for IFE, then the cargo variant wouldn't have been affected. I believe the flying examples have some juryrigged wiring that allows them to prove the airframe and systems, but this wiring is not the final configuration.

I was going to ask this exact question...how can they fly the planes now with this wiring issue?


One Nation Under God
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10187 posts, RR: 71
Reply 4, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11980 times:

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 3):
how can they fly the planes now with this wiring issue?

It's one thing to fly them. It's quite another thing to certify them for production.

User currently offline787engineer From United States, joined Dec 2005, 572 posts, RR: 16
Reply 5, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11967 times:

In my opinion it was originally a a wiring issue. Probably not a big deal hence the shorter delays at the beginning. I suspect that now it's a configuration control and configuration management issue more than it is a wiring issue.

User currently offlineTeamAmerica From United States, joined Sep 2006, 1538 posts, RR: 19
Reply 6, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11876 times:

Quoting Dvautier (Thread starter):
This does not make any sense at all because the plane fitted together even though some parts were designed using the Catia V4 wireframe formulas in Germany and the other parts were made in France using volume formulas (Catia V5). This means that they did get the parts to fit because the planes are obviously flying. It also means that the wire raceways are probably also correctly sized.

Catia was used to model the physical arrangement of the aircraft, and hence the relative location of penetrations and raceways. My interpretation of events is that the wiring harness was designed with minimal slack (as it should be) but this allows for no deviation in the expected physical arrangement. If a raceway is not exactly where expected, connectors, branches, drip loops etc. all wind up in unintended locations. Unitended locations means unservicable at best, but more likely will not meet specification. And this is just the simplest of problems.

I believe the size of penetrations and/or raceways may not have been as expected by the electrical engineers. This could be due to the conversion from Cu to Al, or simply some sort of conversion flaw in moving between Catia versions. Whatever the case, if a hole is too small you may find that the connectors won't pass. If a raceway is too small either the bundle doesn't fit, or you are stuffing power and signal wires too close together - in either case you don't meet specification. Bottom line is that the root cause truly can be traced to the incompatible versions of Catia. I tend to take Airbus at their word so far as this is concerned.

Quoting Dvautier (Thread starter):
If we could just get hold of the schematics and wire diagrams for the A380 a lot of these questions could be answered. But I suspect that these documents do not yet exist.

I agree! I don't think that Airbus has a complete wiring scheme at all. Note that Airbus is holding SQ's first aircraft for a full year. I interpret this to mean that they are fitting that aircraft by trial and error until they get a certifiable design, which they will then need to retain in order to document and replicate the successful installation. If I am correct, it is an indication of just how utterly out of control the current situation really is.


Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
User currently offlineDvautier From United States, joined Oct 2006, 32 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11800 times:

So Airbus is using it as a full scale mockup. Daaaa...Good idea.  idea 

User currently offlineBaron95 From United States, joined May 2006, 1334 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11746 times:

Quoting Dvautier (Thread starter):
Changing from copper to aluminum should not be a big showstopper.

I would not trivialize this issue. Switching from Cu to Al probably most likely meant increase in wire diameter, increase in connector size and complexity, reduction in the number of allowed connections per cable run, etc.

How many holes and raceways had to be changed because of that? How many individual airframe parts had holes and raceways going through them? When EACH one of these parts got redesigned, did it cause any other cascade redesign? Did they lose configuration control with various versions of these parts making their way into the assembly of MSN001-013?

In my mind (and I don't have any sources for this), the biggest failure was Airbus continuing to build planes and trying to certify them while all this was going on. If they had stopped earlier, dedicated one airframe to be completely fitted with wiring (IFE and all), redesigned all parts, built another frame and tested the wire fitting, they'd be out of the woods now.

Instead, they are faced with reworking 13 airframes, each possibly different than the other, then chosing ONE go forward solution to certify and produce. It is a massive undertaking, IMHO.


Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
User currently offlineDvautier From United States, joined Oct 2006, 32 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 11658 times:

I still feel that Catia is not the issue. In the CAD/CAM world you design something in 3D, then you extract what’s called cutter-line data which is then converted into machine tool commands by adding all sorts of postprocessor instructions for the specific machine tool. A part is produced out of foam and sent back to the engineer for check out. This process goes on and on. Catia is a design tool which is used way way upstream. I am certain that German and French engineers were shipping parts back and forth for a long time and they all fit together and there was no problem in using the two versions of Catia. That’s because there is so much manipulation and checking done to the data after the cutter-line gets extracted.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 8):
I would not trivialize this issue. Switching from Cu to Al probably most likely meant increase in wire diameter, increase in connector size and complexity, reduction in the number of allowed connections per cable run, etc.

excellent point baron. looks like we will be seeing yet another delay.

User currently offline787engineer From United States, joined Dec 2005, 572 posts, RR: 16
Reply 10, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 11563 times:

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 8):

I would not trivialize this issue. Switching from Cu to Al probably most likely meant increase in wire diameter, increase in connector size and complexity, reduction in the number of allowed connections per cable run, etc.

Personally I think Airbus had plenty of time to solve any Cu to Al issues. The issues aren't trivial, but Airbus knows how to design airplanes. I'm sure all the tradeoffs between Cu and Al were considered.


Quoting Baron95 (Reply 8):
Did they lose configuration control with various versions of these parts making their way into the assembly of MSN001-013?

IMO loss of configuration control is really the only problem that can explain the long delays we're seeing. If Airbus can't prove configuration control, they won't be allowed to sell the plane; it's that simple. You have to prove that you know everything that goes on each plane and where it is (including the rivet that you upsized 1/32" because you drilled a bad hole).

User currently offlineAirSpare From United States, joined Jun 2006, 589 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 11497 times:

Quoting 787engineer (Reply 5):
In my opinion it was originally a a wiring issue. Probably not a big deal hence the shorter delays at the beginning. I suspect that now it's a configuration control and configuration management issue more than it is a wiring issue.

Exactly. The WSJ report said that there were diferent final designs in use between different A offices. I said it before and I'll say it again, how can you design any subsystem to fit another when the actual designs being used were diferent? In all practicality, the aircraft was being built without a "frozen" design. Airbus probably needed to audit at what design was used for what wiring bundle, at what pahse, then redesign it.

I was flamed by an A employee for stating this opinion, but hey, 2 years later?


Get someone else for your hero worship fetish
User currently offlineTeamAmerica From United States, joined Sep 2006, 1538 posts, RR: 19
Reply 12, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 11456 times:

Quoting Dvautier (Reply 9):
I still feel that Catia is not the issue

Ok, then what is? I don't think anyone is blaming Catia as such; it's more a case of misuse of software related to Catia. Airbus used an in-house tool to move data between the two version of Catia, and that misguided approach apparently is the root of the problem. So if you're saying not to blame Catia itself, I agree...but if you are saying that the A380 delay is not due to "wiring" issues I very much disagree.

Given the extreme scrutiny that Airbus is under, to lie about any aspect of the situation would be literally unbelievable IMHO. EADS is a publicly traded corporation. People go to jail for misrepresentation of facts that relate to the value of a stock.


Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
User currently offlineCHIFLYGUY From United States, joined Aug 2006, 140 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 11388 times:

A Boeing (or ex-Boeing) person posted earlier that when they switched to CAD design for planes, they discovered that the CAD software on the market was inadequate for wiring. I wonder if this, at its core, is not the real problem.

User currently offlineVref5 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 11329 times:

Quoting CHIFLYGUY (Reply 13):
A Boeing (or ex-Boeing) person posted earlier that when they switched to CAD design for planes, they discovered that the CAD software on the market was inadequate for wiring. I wonder if this, at its core, is not the real problem.

No... that's not quite it.

Basically, Airbus in France used one version of the CATIA software, and Airbus in Germany used a different version of the software.

This was a major issue because the software versions are NOT compatible with each other, since they represents objects in very different ways.

Airbus initially tried to resolve the problem by getting someone to write software to convert data files from one version to another. Didn't work out the way they had hoped it would.

So now they are in this big issue... and to convert from one version to another would likely take closer to a year to retrain engineers and somehow convert the existing datafiles to the new version.

CATIA is very good software, mind you. It was used by Boeing for at least the 777 project (that I know of). It's not some POS thing. It's very complex, though.

Well, Airbus doesn't have a lot of options if their two major plants are using incompatible software. They are currently doing wiring by hand because of this, which makes it very difficult to mass-produce as well as set up something that will pass regulatory approval. This is the source of delay.

Unfortunately, Airbus does not have any real easy way out of this issue. And so, they continue to work the problem.

User currently offlineBaron95 From United States, joined May 2006, 1334 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 11286 times:

Quoting 787engineer (Reply 10):
Personally I think Airbus had plenty of time to solve any Cu to Al issues.

787engineer, I thought that the switch from Cu to Al happened as part of the weight savings program that Airbus started late in the project. I'd venture to say that they decided to continue to take delivery of parts and buid planes even as they were making the changes and thus lost configuration control.

Think about how many parts were already built and going into final assembly as this change over ocurred. Perhaps some planes like MSN001-003 had the original parts + post-assembly hand re-work. MSN004-005 had some parts reworked prior to assembly and some parts manually re-worked after assembly. MSN006-013 had most parts re-worked prior to assembly plus some hand rework for IFE, and so on. Could be a nightmare to get under control.


Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
User currently offlineKen777 From United States, joined Mar 2004, 2845 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 11188 times:

Ramblings

First, can I assume that the manager/executive that decided against having both France and Germany on the same version of the software is no longer with the company?

On CU to Al, it's now probably known at Airbus that it would have been cheaper to pay the airlines for a little overweight 380 than the on-goign delay payments.

Would moving back to Cu significantly reduce the wiring problem, in terms of the size of the wires? I recall that the 380 was beating expectations on fuel consumption - is there room for a change back to Cu?

User currently offlineRemcor From United States, joined Feb 2006, 329 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 11143 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 16):
First, can I assume that the manager/executive that decided against having both France and Germany on the same version of the software is no longer with the company?

I don't think you can pin the blame on some manager because he didn't decide on a common software package. Well you could do that, but it neglects the fundamental problem that Airbus is having right now, namely the lack of a unified leadership.

User currently offlineWingedMigrator From United States, joined Oct 2005, 1661 posts, RR: 53
Reply 18, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 11093 times:

Quoting 787engineer (Reply 5):
I suspect that now it's a configuration control and configuration management issue more than it is a wiring issue.

 checkmark  Agree wholeheartedly. They must be drowning in a sea of badly handled Change Requests. Major loss of baseline control!

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 8):
I would not trivialize this issue. Switching from Cu to Al probably most likely meant increase in wire diameter, increase in connector size and complexity, reduction in the number of allowed connections per cable run, etc.

We keep hearing this over and over... when did the switch actually happen? From my understanding it was early in the design phase, before metal was cut. I haven't seen the Al to Cu issue mentioned as a significant contributor to the delays in any trade publications (Flight International or Aviation Week), or in Airbus press releases. Is this another a.net urban legend?

User currently offlinePygmalion From United States, joined Jun 2006, 825 posts, RR: 34
Reply 19, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 11038 times:

Its not CU vs AL. Others have already discussed this on many threads... Airbus flat missed the boat on doing proper design integration across its many suppliers and more importantly, did not do a full digital mockup of the combined designs to be sure those designs were fully integrated. When the IFE and cabin bundles built in Hamburg showed up in Toulouse... they didn't fit. Not only that but they didn't know why they didn't fit.

Quote:

Experts familiar with Airbus design operations say that French factories, where most of the fuselage was made, used the latest version of a sophisticated design tool called CATIA, made by France's Dassault Systèmes, an independent software spinoff from airplane maker Dassault Aviation.

But the Hamburg factory's design center used an earlier version of CATIA dating from the 1980s. When the wiring arrived from Hamburg, it didn't fit correctly into the fuselage. Production ground to a halt as workers tried to pull the bundles apart and re-thread them through the plane.

Manufacturers frequently retain such legacy software alongside newer versions, says Robert Weigl, the Munich-based director of professional services for Proficiency, a Waltham (Mass.) company that specializes in helping companies integrate such systems. Airbus almost certainly could have avoided the wiring mess if top managers had stayed on top of the situation, Weigl says. "It's not only a technical problem, it's a question of project management, of seeing potential problems," he says.

MOVING THE MOUNTAIN. Compounding the problem, Airbus had been slow to move to new software that would allow it to create a full digital mockup of the plane, a three-dimensional computer model incorporating all the specifications and subsequent modification. Boeing is using such a system for the 787. Dassault Aviation is even building corporate jets from a digital mockup. Yet Airbus only signed its first major contracts for Dassault Systèmes' digital-mockup software within the past year, according to people with knowledge of the deal.


The Business Week article here

Airbus just plain blew it. It is managements fault for not having the correct controls and requirements to integrate the designs and it will cost them billions of Euros.

Its not CATIA. Boeing uses both V4 AND V5 in house and with suppliers. Boeing just happens to do full digital mockup and integration with their own proprietary software and have done so on every program and derivative since the 777. You have to do the integration work. From the beginning stages through the full final design process.... or over the two year delay.

It's just that simple.

User currently offlineBaron95 From United States, joined May 2006, 1334 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 11038 times:

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 18):
I haven't seen the Al to Cu issue mentioned as a significant contributor to the delays in any trade publications

That is a good point - lack of specifics here on a.net. I'll try to summarize my understanding of the issue with some backup data. (I'm sorry this will be long)

First, here is what IS true (factual) about the A380 wiring and how it differs from other Airbus airplanes:

http://www.aviationtoday.com/cgi/am/...ub=am&mon=0406&file=comingsoon.htm

Quote:
Some 300 of the 500 kilometers of wiring use aluminum instead of the conventional copper as the current conductor. Thus, 20 percent of the conventional weight has been saved. Aluminum itself is 50 percent lighter than copper.

The aluminum wiring technology has been used on all types of Airbus aircraft for big sections, that is wiring or cable where the cross-sectional dimension is 5 square millimeters (sq mm) or more. The A380 is the first aircraft to use the technology for small sections, under 5 sq mm. and for the connections. There are about 100,000 electrical links on the A380 compared with 60,000 on the A340.

The challenge was protection against corrosion. The new wires are made of nickel-plated, copper-clad aluminum strands. A special protection, based on composites material, has been developed against corrosion. A new specification was worked out for the aluminum connectors. The inside of the insulation material is made of hydrolysis improved polyimide tape. The outer insulaton is made of improved PTFE tape. Airbus also highlights the insulator's resistance to arcing.

Here is a look at the connectors used for aluminum wires on the A380:
http://tri-star-technologies.com/catalog/crimpers/porta-tac-al1.html

More importantly, here is first hand accounts from CAD designers about the problems that Al wiring caused on CATIA and IGE+XAO (electrical design tool used by Airbus):
http://worldcadaccess.typepad.com/blog/2006/07/disaster_storie_2.html

Quote:
"One issue was that the CATIA computer tool used in the airplane's digital design was not sufficiently accurate when it came to designing electrical systems," said senior Airbus executive Tom Williams. "The problem was made worse by Airbus' switch to aluminum wiring when the model was designed for copper wiring, which has very different physical properties."
"Airbus officials say poor design tools were a main cause of A380 delays. Problems with the Catia digital mock-up led to inaccuracies. [Airbus executive vice president for Programs Tom] Williams says the computer tool didn't represent the wiring harnesses well and, because there wasn't always good configuration control in the database, some design changes were not properly reflected and remained undiscovered until problems during wiring installation were encountered."

Regarding the timing of the switch over to Al, it was not an all or nothing proposition. As part of the weight savings program, more wiring was switched from Cu to Al. I have no idea when it stopped, but I know that at rollout in July 2004 the A380 was overweight by 4 tons and a weight loss program was being agressively pursued. At least one source is here:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/182471_airbusproblem17.html


Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
User currently offlineCloudy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 10801 times:

When there is a delay in any large project, more often than not a software issue seems to be behind it. We just don't know how to do large software projects yet. Yes there are some people who are good at it. There are some practices we know are good and others we know are bad. But there is not an accepted and widely practiced set of techniques that consistently give good results - as there is in nearly every other form of engineering. the industry has not evolved to the point where it can consistently deliver results on time and on budget. A large proportion of software projects fail to ever deliver satisfactory results at any budget or timeline. If buildings were built like software, half of the Chicago skyline would consist of partly completed, abandoned shells.

To paraphrase a common quote - Software development is the only legal industry that calls its customers "users" Smile.

User currently offlineTod From Denmark, joined Aug 2004, 1491 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 10735 times:

Quoting Vref5 (Reply 14):
CATIA is very good software, mind you. It was used by Boeing for at least the 777 project (that I know of).

....and portions of the 737NG, 744, 767 and of course 787.

Tod

User currently offlineWingedMigrator From United States, joined Oct 2005, 1661 posts, RR: 53
Reply 23, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 10669 times:

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 20):
I'll try to summarize my understanding of the issue with some backup data.

Thanks for the links, I appreciate that you took the time to post them. So it appears that a switch to Al wiring was one of several contributing factors to what is principally a configuration management problem.

This is very much unlike the insinuations that I've read elsewhere on a.net, that Airbus was having technical problems with the aluminum wiring itself (with the obligatory references to fire-prone aluminum house wiring of the 1970s). That story remains unsubstatiated.

Quoting Vref5 (Reply 14):
CATIA is very good software, mind you.

But it's French!  shhh   Big grin

User currently offlineSaintsman From United Kingdom (England), joined Mar 2002, 2065 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (3 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 10654 times:

Hypothetically, there is a problem when modeling electrical harnesses. Whilst they can be produced on screen and dimensions made it is a different matter when manufacturing them. Cable lengths are cut to size iaw the drawing dimensions. If they are cut without any tolerance there is a potential problem when it comes to making the wiring loom. If for example a loom has a 90 degree bend in it, the wires on the outside of the bend could be half an inch (12mm) longer than those on the inside. Put several bends in and you may find a wire that is too short to reach the connector.

I'm not sure that is the case with the A380 though.

Normally when designing a new harness, on the first installation the wires are made over length and the amount cut off is fed back to design who amend the drawings accordingly. This is why the first prototypes did not have the problem that the production aircraft have.

User currently offlineNitrohelper From United States, joined Mar 2005, 429 posts, RR: 3
Reply 25, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 10606 times:

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 20):
Baron95

Thanks for your post , this is the kind info that helps us engineering folks understand what could have really caused the delays. I am surprised that we haven't heard from some Airbus engineers that must visit this site about the "real stories". It looks to me that upper management either didn't know what was going on ,or could not bring themselves to face the facts until it was way too late.
Why did they keep building airframes with these kind of problems, stock price worries or national pride?
"to error is human,but to really screw-up you need a computer" (software)  old 

26 Baroque: Great post, almost enough to make me think I half understand!
27 ElGreco: For your information, A380 was designed from the origin with Cooper/Aluminium cable (each wire of cable is aluminium with 10µ of cooper and 2µ of ni
28 Zvezda: I thought that was due to the general shortage of copper during the war, as much as for weight.
29 Post contains images Starlionblue: Have fun paying for the hardware and software to run the diagrams. Indeed. Software is just another tool. If you use it incorrectly, it'll come back
30 ElGreco: You absolutly right, but it's look like they were even interested for weight saving (Germans Friends from Airbus Hambourg told me that).
31 Baroque: A look through Janes WWII edition shows that the Germans had some pretty formidable planes in development at war's end, especially in terms of range
32 Post contains links Starlionblue: I have this fascinating book about German WWII aircraft projects: http://www.amazon.com/Luftwaffe-Secr...02-1710107-1621766?ie=UTF8&s=books It's amaz
Top Of Page
Forum Index

Reply To This TopicA380 Delay -- Is It Really Catia
Username: 


No username? Sign up now!
  • Tech/Ops related posts only!
  • Not Tech/Ops related? Use the other forums
  • No adverts of any kind. This includes web pages.
  • No hostile language or criticizing of others.
  • Do not post copyright protected material.
  • Use relevant and describing topics.
  • Check if your post already been discussed.
  • Check your spelling!           DETAILED RULES (NEW)
  • Password: 


    Forgot Password? Be reminded.
    Remember me on this computer (uses cookies)

    Add Images Add SmiliesPosting Help
    FORUM RULES HAVE CHANGED - READ THEM HERE

    Please check your spelling (press "Check Spelling" above)


    Similar topics:More similar topics...
    "Driving" The A380 - How Easy Is It? posted Wed Feb 14 2007 11:07:59 by BOACVC10
    A380 Pitch Trim Wheel (where Is It?) posted Mon Jul 18 2005 15:33:52 by Zarniwoop
    Why Is It A380? posted Mon Mar 26 2001 00:20:31 by Bio15
    Medical Diversion, Is It Free? posted Sat Jun 23 2007 16:30:53 by UAEflyer
    Engine Testing And Sphere What Is It? (Video) posted Mon Feb 26 2007 15:42:44 by Airfoilsguy
    Is It Possible To Develop A Flap... posted Thu Feb 15 2007 20:24:22 by Blackbird
    Single Jet Engine GA Plane (Is It Possible?) posted Sat Jan 6 2007 22:19:36 by Blackbird
    'Triller' ... What Is It Used For? posted Thu Dec 28 2006 01:51:53 by Tom12
    Dewpoint: How Is It Calculated? posted Wed Nov 22 2006 04:24:49 by LTU932
    How Easy Is It To Change Config. Of A Plane? posted Thu Oct 19 2006 04:08:48 by Brenintw

    Sponsor Message:
    Printer friendly format