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ILS Question  
User currently offlineAirWillie6475 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 2448 posts, RR: 1
Posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2693 times:

I know that to be able to land on an ILS you have to at least be able to see the runway environment at the DH. So often you continue if you see the approach lights even if you don't see the runway. Question is are there any airports that do not have runway approach lights but still use an ILS?

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User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11655 posts, RR: 60
Reply 1, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2689 times:

I can think of one just down the road from me, PLH Plymouth Roborough. It has landing lights from the East end (Runway 13), but to the other there is a major road in the way and then a housing estate plus doctors surgery. Nice image of it too in the MyAv. database.


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User currently offlineVikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10026 posts, RR: 26
Reply 2, posted (7 years 11 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2683 times:
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Quoting AirWillie6475 (Thread starter):
I know that to be able to land on an ILS you have to at least be able to see the runway environment at the DH. So often you continue if you see the approach lights even if you don't see the runway. Question is are there any airports that do not have runway approach lights but still use an ILS?

Runway 27 at BOS has an ILS (category I). The only "approach" lights it has are REIL (runway end identifier lights).

I've actually been meaning to ask about that. Are there stricter limits for this runway versus other Category I ILS's?

~Vik



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineArch89U From United States of America, joined May 2001, 188 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2629 times:

Vikkyvik-

Your question obviously made me curious so I looked up the approach plates for Rwy 27 at BOS.

The notable "stricter limits" I found are that the minimums are 460 ft. MSL (typical ILS limits with the full complement of approach lights, etc. is 200 ft. AGL, here it's like 440 ft. AGL). Additionally, with the use of this approach, the Alternate minimums are higher than standard (600 ft. and 2 miles viz).

If you want to see the plate, click here: http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0610/00058I27.PDF

I notice this runway has centerline lighting. Somewhat odd that it doesn't have a set of approach lights.

Arch89U


User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9101 posts, RR: 75
Reply 4, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2600 times:

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Thread starter):

I know that to be able to land on an ILS you have to at least be able to see the runway environment at the DH.

Maybe you mean DA, a DH can be zero, making approach lights useless, edge and centre, taxiway lights is all you need.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineVikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10026 posts, RR: 26
Reply 5, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2550 times:
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Quoting Arch89U (Reply 3):
I notice this runway has centerline lighting. Somewhat odd that it doesn't have a set of approach lights.

Well, the runway threshold is about 200 feet from Boston Harbor (if that). With two approach light piers already jutting out into the harbor (on 4R and 33L), I wouldn't be surprised if the environmental activists nixed a third.

Hmmmm, I saw a C-17 approaching KBED today....never seen that before!



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineOnetogo From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 314 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2542 times:

Quoting Arch89U (Reply 3):
I notice this runway has centerline lighting. Somewhat odd that it doesn't have a set of approach lights.

The water is too deep there.

Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 5):

Hmmmm, I saw a C-17 approaching KBED today....never seen that before!

My home airport.. I see them there once a month or so.


User currently offlineVikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10026 posts, RR: 26
Reply 7, posted (7 years 11 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2516 times:
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Quoting Onetogo (Reply 6):
My home airport.. I see them there once a month or so.

My "home" airport as well. As in, I live 2 miles away (well, until 2 weeks from now - I will miss the air traffic!). They used to always get a C-130, either once a week or once a month, I forget, and occasionally a C-5. I didn't know that they got C-17's now too! Was quite a nice surprise.

Quoting Onetogo (Reply 6):
The water is too deep there.

Interesting. I'd imagine it is close to the same depth as where the light piers are for 33L. Did they do some dredging there (or whatever it's called)?



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineHKA From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 148 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2255 times:

I have another question regarding ILS system: What is the approx. cost of intsalling an ILS system ?

I have been to countries where there was no ILS system and the pilots had to land the airplane on a different airport which had the ILS system.
This caused a lot of hassle.


User currently offlineDw747400 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 1260 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2253 times:

Quoting Zeke (Reply 4):
Maybe you mean DA, a DH can be zero, making approach lights useless, edge and centre, taxiway lights is all you need.

Are there any CAT III systems without approach lights? At BOS this appears to be a CAT I ILS, and most smaller airports will only use a CAT I.



CFI--Certfied Freakin Idiot
User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2236 times:

Yes, lots of lights all on high settings. Here is a link to the FAA Order addressing such things.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/.../policy_guidance/media/675024d.doc



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineVikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10026 posts, RR: 26
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2197 times:
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Quoting Dw747400 (Reply 9):
Are there any CAT III systems without approach lights? At BOS this appears to be a CAT I ILS, and most smaller airports will only use a CAT I.

From the link that IAHFLYR kindly provided:

"Approach Lighting Systems. If installed, this equipment supports reduced visibility minima for CAT I operations. An Approach Lighting System with Sequenced Flashing Lights (ALSF), CAT I or II Configuration, is required for CAT II and III operations respectively."

Sounds to me like approach lights are optional for CAT I, but required for CAT's II and III.

(hey, does anyone know where Zeke went???)



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineWoodreau From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1041 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2088 times:

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Thread starter):
I know that to be able to land on an ILS you have to at least be able to see the runway environment at the DH.

That's not true, you only have to "see the runway environment" in order to go below DH/MDA - you can still continue the approach below DH/MDA without seeing the runway environment if you have the approach lights in sight.

At least for me - there have been many times when I've arrived at DH on a Cat I ILS and I don't see the runway environment - I only have one or two rabbit flashers. then you use 91.175 to continue the approach - with the flashers I can continue down to 100ft above TDZE. There have been a few times after continuing down to 100ft above TDZE, the only thing I can see are green lights but I can't see the centerline lights or runway edge lights- that's still runway environment, as far as I am concerned I have the required flight visibility and I can land.

If there aren't any approach lights, your ILS visibility minimums will most likely be higher than 1/2 or 3/4. If the approach lights are out of service, then you have to increase the visibility requirements using the inop components table.



Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4445 posts, RR: 76
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2027 times:
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Quoting Woodreau (Reply 12):
At least for me - there have been many times when I've arrived at DH on a Cat I ILS and I don't see the runway environment - I only have one or two rabbit flashers. then you use 91.175 to continue the approach - with the flashers I can continue down to 100ft above TDZE. There have been a few times after continuing down to 100ft above TDZE, the only thing I can see are green lights but I can't see the centerline lights or runway edge lights- that's still runway environment, as far as I am concerned I have the required flight visibility and I can land.

I think you are taking the regs a bit too far, as the requirement is that the visibility is not below the minimum.
For a Cat 1 ILs, the vis is 1/2 mile with a 200 ft height , a relation which is just about correct for a 3° glide slope. Therefore, if at your MDA of 200 ft, you do not see the runway, or "at least one of the following visual references for the intended runway is distinctly visible and identifiable to the pilot:
(i) The approach light system, except that the pilot may not descend below 100 feet above the touchdown zone elevation using the approach lights as a reference unless the red terminating bars or the red side row bars are also distinctly visible and identifiable.
(ii) The threshold.
(iii) The threshold markings.
(iv) The threshold lights.
(v) The runway end identifier lights.
(vi) The visual approach slope indicator.
(vii) The touchdown zone or touchdown zone markings.
(viii) The touchdown zone lights.
(ix) The runway or runway markings.
(x) The runway lights
",
you are illegal.



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