Mohavewolfpup From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (6 years 7 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3425 times:
Last year on final approach (and throughout the flight now and then) from PHX>PHL on southwest N775SW, I was taking photos. after a while, I was aware of water running down from the top of the emergency exit door (was seated on the left side of the plane closest to the door) into my lap. It wasn't like a gushing torrent of it, just would come now and then. yes it was raining some, especially on final approach into the airport (great coming through the clouds!) but I always wondered what was going on.
It didn't seem like a threat, I figured if the aircraft had a giant leak in it, the crew would know, so I didn't get all panicked about it.
The leak seemed to come from the sealing area around the top of it, and ran from there. is this just cabin temps combined with the outside temp, or something else?
incidentally also, that poor window would need a replacement at some point, it started out clear when it took off from PHX, but when it PHL it was very dinged up with star cracks from the engine kicking out debris possibly? made photos hard to take after a while! It wasn't ice, as it never melted off, especially when the plane landed and we sat/taxied to the terminal for a bit (flew july 6th 2005, not exactly winter! )
Jamie757 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 1, posted (6 years 7 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3416 times:
Quoting Mohavewolfpup (Thread starter): The leak seemed to come from the sealing area around the top of it, and ran from there. is this just cabin temps combined with the outside temp, or something else?
I think this was condensation that you experienced, I've had a similar experience on a 752.
Quoting Mohavewolfpup (Thread starter): incidentally also, that poor window would need a replacement at some point, it started out clear when it took off from PHX, but when it PHL it was very dinged up with star cracks from the engine kicking out debris possibly?
EMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9286 posts, RR: 13 Reply 2, posted (6 years 7 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3413 times:
Very-very common. Most all windows have a small hole or drain to allow this condinsation to vent out. If you look at your pic you can just seen the drain in the very lower edge.
As for rain coming in that is common as well around doors. As the plane depressurzes water can seep in around the door seal. It's common to find water soaked insulation below the overwing doors.
[Edited 2006-10-25 02:37:19]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
i'm sure it wasn't ice, it never left off the window. I watched as it grew in scope also. the more we flew to the destination, the more dinged up the window got. hard to tell in the photo also, but you could see the tiny cracks/dings in it when you looked at it from the right angle. it reached a point also that it was so bad, I couldn't take photos of the citys below anymore. due to the 10-20 minute delay on the ground taxing in also, it never melted then either. I always weight until about 98% of the plane empties out so I can get out my luggage above, and it still didn't
maybe someone serviced N775SW for this problem, I don't know. i'm just a wolf flying on a plane (no, I don't claw the seats up, you are all safe!)
474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 10 Reply 4, posted (6 years 7 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3377 times:
The picture is ice crystals on the inside surface of the outer window pane. You stated there was water dripping on you, I am sure some of that moisture also worked its way in between the inner and outer window pane.
Quote:
i'm sure it wasn't ice, it never left off the window. I watched as it grew in scope also. the more we flew to the destination, the more dinged up the window got. hard to tell in the photo also, but you could see the tiny cracks/dings in it when you looked at it from the right angle. it reached a point also that it was so bad, I couldn't take photos of the citys below anymore. due to the 10-20 minute delay on the ground taxing in also, it never melted then either. I always weight until about 98% of the plane empties out so I can get out my luggage above, and it still didn't melt!
please read what I post, I doubt ice takes that long to melt in summer.
did you read this part?
Quote:
It wasn't ice, as it never melted off, especially when the plane landed and we sat/taxied to the terminal for a bit (flew july 6th 2005, not exactly winter!)
it was july 6th 2005, and when I finally got out of the plane and into the taxi terminal, it was very humid feeling. I am not flying to Inuit Country up in canada in december, I flew at the peak of summer......
oh yeah, when I noticed the "ice" everyone calls it forming, it was still sunny out. I got a beautiful ride in my favorite plane of all time, a 737 with sun shining in. felt nice and was a moment to remember. It was a warm sun also. so apparently this "ice" defied sun shining in, which would have melted some of it. why did more form later on then? I would say the flecks in the window started forming about 1.5 hours outside of phoenix at this point.
Seanp11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 290 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (6 years 7 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3325 times:
If it looks like ice, it probably was ice. Glass tends not to crack in straight lines, while (water) ice will always form in the same crystal form.
And it is possible for the ice to take a while to melt, especially if
Quoting 474218 (Reply 4): The picture is ice crystals on the inside surface of the outer window pane. You stated there was water dripping on you, I am sure some of that moisture also worked its way in between the inner and outer window pane.
Quoting Mohavewolfpup (Reply 5): oh yeah, when I noticed the "ice" everyone calls it forming, it was still sunny out. I got a beautiful ride in my favorite plane of all time, a 737 with sun shining in. felt nice and was a moment to remember. It was a warm sun also. so apparently this "ice" defied sun shining in, which would have melted some of it. why did more form later on then?
When it is well below freezing, the sun won't make any real difference in melting the ice or not.
If the glass were actually fracturing, the lines of the fracture would be curved to some extent. That is just how glass behaves. It is called conchoidal fracture. These things, let them be cracks or ice crystals, are straight. If your picture was better resolution, I could probably get a better idea, but those really do look like ice crystals.
StealthZ From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5433 posts, RR: 49 Reply 7, posted (6 years 7 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3313 times:
Quoting Mohavewolfpup (Thread starter): that poor window would need a replacement at some point, it started out clear when it took off from PHX, but when it PHL it was very dinged up with star cracks from the engine kicking out debris possibly?
You can rest assured that what others have told you about frozen condensation between the window panes is what you saw here.
If the engine was kicking out enough debris to do this much damage during your flight we would likely be reading half a dozen threads in Civ/Av speculating what might have happened to 775SW on that tragic flight between PHX & PHL, and your family grieving your loss!
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
Airfoilsguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (6 years 7 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3277 times:
The wing is blocking the engine. If it was the engine doing that to the window there would be a big hole in the wing to allow it to happen. It is most lickely ice on the second window. The air between the first window and the second window takes a while to warm up.
BAe146QT From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2006, 996 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (6 years 7 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3262 times:
Perhaps it would help if someone was able to explain to our canine friend here why the ice remained for so long after landing?
At a guess I would say that the aircraft was cold soaked at altitude and because glass is a poor conductor, the inner pane remained cold for some time after?
Further, I've definitely read threads here about clear ice remaining on the wings of aircraft for *long* after they have landed.
Further to the comments above, look at the condensation patterns around the mystery marks. There's clearly a temperature difference around those white blobs.
Quoting Mohavewolfpup (Thread starter): it was very dinged up with star cracks from the engine kicking out debris possibly
If that had been the case, I think you'd have heard it.
Don't think so, have a look below, the window is forward of the engine..
Quoting EMBQA (Reply 2): As for rain coming in that is common as well around doors. As the plane depressurzes water can seep in around the door seal. It's common to find water soaked insulation below the overwing doors.
It was raining at the airport when I experienced the same thing so that explains it.
Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 9): At a guess I would say that the aircraft was cold soaked at altitude and because glass is a poor conductor, the inner pane remained cold for some time after?
474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 10 Reply 13, posted (6 years 7 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3195 times:
Quoting Mohavewolfpup (Reply 5): please read what I post, I doubt ice takes that long to melt in summer.
did you read this part?
The aircraft flew at -65 degrees for several hours. It will some time, even on a hot day, to heat the surface enough to melt any ice. I read what you said, but I have worked on aircraft for over 40 years and I know those are ice crystals in your photo.
Quoting Seanp11 (Reply 6): If the glass were actually fracturing,
Curmudgeon From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 695 posts, RR: 22 Reply 16, posted (6 years 7 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3015 times:
The star patterns are ice. This pattern is common, and is much like a snowflake growing in place. If I had a dollar for every time I've seen that...
The dripping wasn't leaking-it was condensation. As you reported, there was high humidity on the ground. During descent, the aircraft's air conditioning systems are only just running, due to the reduced bleed air available from idling engines. The humidity in the cabin increases, and condensation forms on the still very cold metal ribs just behind the trim. This is most noticeable around windows and doors. (It is impossible for rain to leak into a pressurised airframe)
Rest assured that the same happens in the cockpit. Some aircraft (I'm thinking of 747-200's specifically) drip ice water right down the captain's neck during arrival. Part of the descent checks used to be the strategic placement of wads of Kleenex around trim openings in order to avoid the water torture caper.
HAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31201 posts, RR: 58 Reply 17, posted (6 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2887 times:
Quoting Curmudgeon (Reply 16): Rest assured that the same happens in the cockpit. Some aircraft (I'm thinking of 747-200's specifically) drip ice water right down the captain's neck during arrival
The B752 with its "Over powerfull Packs" has this problem.Especially if the drip is right over the Rudder trim knob on P8.
regds
MEL
Jetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7336 posts, RR: 52 Reply 18, posted (6 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2727 times:
On the DC10, it was common that the seam between the door panel joining the with the removable slide bustle, that water would run down the front of it form condensation freezing during flight that builds up around the window port. Very common. On the 757, when the door is open and you look down at the floorin each corner, you'll see little drains for the condensation that melts.
Legoguy From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 3301 posts, RR: 44 Reply 19, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2506 times:
Quoting Mohavewolfpup (Thread starter): incidentally also, that poor window would need a replacement at some point, it started out clear when it took off from PHX, but when it PHL it was very dinged up with star cracks from the engine kicking out debris possibly?
LOL. As everyone else has stated, it's ice. If it was debris from the engine you would have heard small noises as the debris cracking the window. The first time I remember seeing this happen was when I was young. I got ennoyed because I couldn't enjoy the view out of the window however IIRC, I got to go up to the cockpit and the view there was amazing!
Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?
Smcmac32msn From United States of America, joined May 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 5 Reply 20, posted (6 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2413 times:
Quoting Mohavewolfpup (Thread starter): incidentally also, that poor window would need a replacement at some point, it started out clear when it took off from PHX, but when it PHL it was very dinged up with star cracks from the engine kicking out debris possibly? made photos hard to take after a while! It wasn't ice, as it never melted off, especially when the plane landed and we sat/taxied to the terminal for a bit (flew july 6th 2005, not exactly winter! Big grin)
What kind of debris would you be hitting at 30,000+ ft in the air?! Microscopic alien life forms?! LOL. Dude, give it up, its ICE. Ice, Ice, Baby!
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