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Heavy Take-off With Tailwind  
User currently offlineBA84 From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 420 posts, RR: 3
Posted (7 years 12 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6737 times:
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Obviously these guys know their airplane intimately, but of course, the passengers are oblivious. Is this done by European or NA carriers? Pilots, come in.....


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User currently offlineFuturecaptain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 12 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6700 times:

We try not to t/o or land with a tailwind, but in some cases it is not possible. Although with the wind 090/15 as the photographer says I probably wouldn't have used runway 27. But then again, I dont fly planes burning gas at a rate of thousands of pounds per hour either.

For example, in a C-152 you increase your t/o distance by 10% for every 2 knots of tailwind. If a similar formula is used for heavies (someone else can chime in here) then you could simply run out of runway with a strong enough tailwind.


User currently offlineHeliflyerPDC From Belgium, joined Sep 2006, 128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 12 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6693 times:

I believe that take-off with tailwind is NOT allowed. It obviously dangerous. Probably these pilots had something of a "weight and balance "issue. (but of course I don't know the real circumstances)

I hope it helps.



grtz PDC
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 12 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6642 times:

Not a pilot, but a dispatcher, and tailwind takeoffs are done in some cases.

Each aircraft has its own specific values, but generally speaking, most aircraft are limited to a max of 10 knots of tailwind on takeoff. It helps greatly to have ample runway to do so, since a tailwind takeoff has the same effect as shortening the runway, which results in a lower maximum takeoff weight, and one sometimes lower to the point where one has to leave folks behind.

Many times, tailwind takeoffs will be used so the aircraft departure path is over area-A versus area-B, and you ususally see this for late night ops and/or noise abatement. Should the surface winds increase such that the tailwind component exceeds what the aircraft can do, they'll switch the runways around where aircraft are again operating into the wind. That's supposed to be the way it works, and usually does, but human compliance is another issue entirely.

Now, as far as the comments in Sam's photos are concerned, I have no idea what the max tailwind is for a IL-86 takeoff. That said, lifting off so close to the end of the runway, you "wonder" if they'd have had enough runway to stop had they aborted the takeoff.


User currently offlineHeliflyerPDC From Belgium, joined Sep 2006, 128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 12 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6627 times:

I didn't know that its alowed. Thnkx for the info

grtz PDC



grtz PDC
User currently offlineLowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (7 years 12 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6426 times:

Sometimes a tailwind takeoff is less restrictive, depending upon what lies beyond the end of the runway.


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User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17068 posts, RR: 66
Reply 6, posted (7 years 12 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 6389 times:

Quoting HeliflyerPDC (Reply 2):
I believe that take-off with tailwind is NOT allowed. It obviously dangerous.

As has been explained, tail wind take off are allowed under certain circumstances. Limiting factors are windspeed and direction, runway length and max tire speed.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineVikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10103 posts, RR: 26
Reply 7, posted (7 years 12 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 6377 times:
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Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 3):
Now, as far as the comments in Sam's photos are concerned, I have no idea what the max tailwind is for a IL-86 takeoff. That said, lifting off so close to the end of the runway, you "wonder" if they'd have had enough runway to stop had they aborted the takeoff.

Not to mention, at least in the US, I believe you have to be at least 35 feet above ground by the end of the runway (if there's no stopway or whatever). Don't know if the FAA would pay you a visit if you weren't, or what.

~Vik



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 6072 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (7 years 12 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 6343 times:

Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 7):
Not to mention, at least in the US, I believe you have to be at least 35 feet above ground by the end of the runway (if there's no stopway or whatever). Don't know if the FAA would pay you a visit if you weren't, or what.

For turbine-engine powered transport planes certified in the U.S. after September 30, 1958, takeoff performance calculations must ensure that the aircraft can takeoff and climb out over a clearway past the the end of the runway. The clearway is defined as an extended area beyond the runway 500 feet wide with a grade of 1.25% where no object, except for approach lighting 26" high or less, may extend.



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User currently offlineVikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10103 posts, RR: 26
Reply 9, posted (7 years 12 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 6325 times:
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Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 8):

For turbine-engine powered transport planes certified in the U.S. after September 30, 1958, takeoff performance calculations must ensure that the aircraft can takeoff and climb out over a clearway past the the end of the runway. The clearway is defined as an extended area beyond the runway 500 feet wide with a grade of 1.25% where no object, except for approach lighting 26" high or less, may extend.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but my interpretation of the previous paragraph is that as long as your wheels are off the ground by the runway end, you can climb at a grade of 1.26% and be legal. Is that correct?

Also, is the approach lighting height supposed to be 26 feet, as opposed to inches?

Lastly, is there a distance from the end of the runway to which the clearway extends?

Thanks for your input, Goldenshield.

~Vik



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineLowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (7 years 12 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 6318 times:

Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 9):
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but my interpretation of the previous paragraph is that as long as your wheels are off the ground by the runway end, you can climb at a grade of 1.26% and be legal. Is that correct?

Depends upon the climb segment. If memory serves, the first segment goes from rotation to 35 feet agl, and only a positive rate, with one engine inop, must be maintained. Second segment goes from 35 feet to 400 feet agl, and a 2.4 percent climb grade must be with one engine inop. In the third segment I think the required grade drops to 1.2 percent and it must be maintained to a height which clears all obstructions or 1500 feet, which ever is higher, and the final segment is for acceleration and clean up. It has been a while since I looked at my notes for this, so I won't swear to the numbers. To tell the truth, I just did a quick search for them and can't lay my hands on them at the moment. But in general terms, that is how the take off profile goes.



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User currently offlineBroke From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 1322 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (7 years 12 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 6253 times:

The runway at La Paz, Bolivia has a 2% gradient. No matter which way the wind is blowing you takeoff going downhill. The takeoff I experienced from the jumpseat was a pip!!
The tower called out an 8 knot tailwind, but the windsock was straight out!!
At sea level that translates to about 15-20 knots. La Paz is at 13,500' above sea level.
So off we went downhill and the airspeed didn't do anything for about 3,000' and the approach lights at the other end came up awfully fast and awfully near to us as we went over them.
Not a takeoff for the white knuckled passenger!!  Smile


User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9156 posts, RR: 76
Reply 12, posted (7 years 12 months 2 days ago) and read 6206 times:

Quoting BA84 (Thread starter):
Obviously these guys know their airplane intimately, but of course, the passengers are oblivious. Is this done by European or NA carriers? Pilots, come in.....

That is runway 27 at Phuket, it has an offset ILS, it is the preferred runway for takeoff and landing.

RW 09 only has a non precision approaches, and a hill on the takeoff path. The ILS on RW 27 is offset to avoid that hill.

RW 27 is downhill, with nothing but ocean for miles and miles.

Quoting HeliflyerPDC (Reply 2):
I believe that take-off with tailwind is NOT allowed. It obviously dangerous. Probably these pilots had something of a "weight and balance "issue. (but of course I don't know the real circumstances)

Most jets that I know of are certified for takeoff with 10kt of tailwind. I can think of a number of airports that are normally only allow takeoff and landing in certain directions, where either tailwind on landing or takeoff happens.

Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 7):
Not to mention, at least in the US, I believe you have to be at least 35 feet above ground by the end of the runway (if there's no stopway or whatever). Don't know if the FAA would pay you a visit if you weren't, or what.

Screen heights are more to do with one engine inoperative situations, and the screen height changes with the condition of the runway, it is lower for a we runway.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
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