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Temperature And Reliability Of Equipment  
User currently offlineConcentriq From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 368 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2951 times:

There was a discussion in Civ, regarding how outside temperature affects reliability of the planes in general. I wanted to know more: is there any merit to the statement that when temperature outside (just temperature, not snow or high winds) gets colder, the reliability goes down significantly enough to cause sustained delays. Especially on MD80

My thinking is that at 30-40 thousand feet, the temperature will be colder than almost anything on the ground, and somehow that doesnt affect the reliability. Some people provided data (or talked about the data. Thanks Sideflare75) that showed the dependence of delays to season, but my thinking is it is due to general fact of worse weather. However same data talked about no change in reliability with other types of equipment. Some also pointed to airlines themselves talking about unreliable performance of some of the planes (Thanks TVNWZ). Could anyone answer this question?

Here is the original topic. The discussion starts near the end...
Midwest Airlines Reports 3Q Profit! (by N917ME Oct 26 2006 in Civil Aviation)


Mobilis In Mobili
14 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineFuturecaptain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 2936 times:

I have never heard of just a temp change causing a/c delays. Now, I'm just a Cessna pilot, but lower temps usually mean better t/o and landing performance, better initial rate of climb, lower density altitudes, lower overall fuel burn, better engine temps, ect, ect.

I would much like to hear from people flying bigger birds about this topic too. I cant understand how ONLY lower temps would affect an airliner completely different from my Cessna.


User currently offlineFr8Mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5418 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2916 times:

My evidence is anecdotal, but temperature certainly affects reliability. It just seems that more hydraulic seals begin to leak, especially dynamic ones. Then, of course, you get the standard PAC write-ups about not being able to maintain temperature on the ground.

Why the difference? Who knows, but we definelty see more leaks in the winter.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineVref5 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2908 times:

Are these things (e.g. hydraulic seals) more sensitive in a narrow temperature range like what is experienced in the winter on the ground only?

The reason why I ask is because at the FL's (flight levels), it's pretty darned cold up there. Big grin And jets goes up there every flight segment... but yet, you don't get as much of these squawks in the summer? That's why I'm curious about the temperature range thing affecting dispatch reliability.


User currently offline777WT From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 875 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2900 times:

On the ERJ-145, the cold temps are related to the gust lock not releasing due to ice buildup on top of the T-tail or the 'APU FAIL' occurs when deicing fluid is sprayed into the intake of the APU and the APU overspeeds then shutdown.

Maint. is called out to defer the APU which can take 10-15 mins from pulling the C/B's for the APU and doing the paperwork and phone call wth mtx control.

As for anything else...once in a while an captain of a ERJ-170 calls us because it's freezing inside the cabin...well duh the aircraft has been sitting overnight at this airport and you didn't even fire up the APU...


Don't forget it's also due to deicing delays at a busy airport and they may have to return for another deicing if the holdover time expires and the ATC is unable to get them in the air in time.

[Edited 2006-10-30 17:20:13]

User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2900 times:

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 1):
but lower temps usually mean better t/o and landing performance, better initial rate of climb, lower density altitudes, lower overall fuel burn, better engine temps, ect, ect.

Yup... jet engines LOVE cold crisp air. I did a test flight one night back in BGR in a Saab 340. I think it was -10c or so....we took off like a rocket and passed the mid field mark holding around a 30deg angle till about 15,000ft. The engines were nice and cool and putting out all kinds of power. I got a good chuckle when the F/O asked that Capt if he wanted to start leveling off.. "Nope"

[Edited 2006-10-30 17:14:44]


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineN231YE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2867 times:

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 1):
I have never heard of just a temp change causing a/c delays.

I know off the top of my head, that it has happened once. Back in the '80s, at PHX, it was so hot that the aircraft performance charts did not go up that high, so of course, there were delays.

Nowadays, aircraft performance charts are calibrated to higher outside temperatures, so that does not happen again.


User currently offlineVref5 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2862 times:

777WT: Makes sense; thanks!

[Edited 2006-10-30 20:28:02]

User currently offlineFuturecaptain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2813 times:

Quoting N231YE (Reply 6):

I do remember that. I lived in the PHX area for many years. It was always a good story to tell.

But cold temps? Ever heard of that being harmful?


User currently offlineN231YE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2796 times:

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 8):
But cold temps? Ever heard of that being harmful?

Not with cold temps. That is also why Boeing and Airbus "cold soak" their prototype airplanes (like the A380 in Canada), to make sure that everything can withstand the lower temperatures.


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[Edited 2006-10-31 14:43:47]

User currently offlineVref5 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2790 times:

I remember when Embraer sent their new pre-EIS 170 to FAI for some cold weather tests during end of the last week of January 2003 or so. Caught my attention when I saw an Embraer I didn't immediately recognize on the apron.
Later confirmed it was the 170 from a story in the Fairbanks News-Miner daily newspaper.

I seem to vaguely recall they had to do some FAI-BRW flying instead of ANC-FAI due to a sudden and major heat wave that had hit Alaska at that time. The jet stream had significantly moved so northern U.S. (lower 48 states) were much colder than Alaska! I was sweating in Fairbanks, which normally has arctic weather in the winter!

In a more average January, it would have had been anywhere between -20 to -60 degrees F at FAI as the low temperature for the day.

Ah, found a photo:

http://www.alaskaaerofuel.com/cwt.html


User currently offlineGreasespot From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 3084 posts, RR: 20
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2749 times:

3 winters ago we made a lot of money off the CRJ operators who retracted their flaps during the winter. Then the cable would freeze and they could not extend them.

I think that the solution at that time was to leave the flaps in T/O settings at shut down.

I found a report that R.R perpared on our Arctic operations in the early 90's with regards to our Darts. They called our environment much harsher than anything they fly in Africa.. Once we learned a few little quirks we got pretty good dispatch on the HS748's and ATR's.

GS



Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 4007 posts, RR: 34
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2730 times:

Once the aircraft is flying, it is not the temperature that is a problem, but the winter weather. Items that can be despatched iaw the MEL in the summer, like wing antice, pitot heaters windscreen heat, are no go in the winter. But this is due to the clouds, not the temps.
On the ground it's the same story. Most winter troubles are due to water systems freezing when the aircraft gets too cold. We drain the water at night, and put a heater on the aircraft, but still the water system causes problems.
What we need is an additive that you can put in drinking water so it doesn't freeze, and you can still drink it!!!


User currently offlineCurmudgeon From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 695 posts, RR: 22
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2723 times:

The difference between cruise level temperatures (-56) and ground temps is that the systems are cold soaked on the ground after a prolonged shut down.

Hydraulic systems, prop seals, cable actuated controls, water tanks, galleys all have problems at very cold temps. Once the temps got into the -40 range we used to call it 'cold enough to freeze the nuts off a jeep'. Airplanes too.
Things like fuel pumps not running, fuel being close to the freeze point even before take off, pilots frozen to the seats (DON'T lick the controls!) were common. Frost on wings. Engines no start due ignition exciters/igniters failing.

On the piston engine transports its common to have oil heaters and bring the batteries indoors.

Another delay reason is the F/O being late because his POS car didn't start.
Don't ask me how I know this.



Jets are for kids
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17038 posts, RR: 66
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2715 times:

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 12):
What we need is an additive that you can put in drinking water so it doesn't freeze, and you can still drink it!!!

Alcohol would work. Big grin



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
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