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No Flaps Landings...  
User currently offlineUsAirways16bwi From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1004 posts, RR: 4
Posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5512 times:

i would be worried if we started our decent, put down the gear and started approach, and still not putting down the flaps. i came across this pic

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Photo © Anthony Jackson



If this is not that unusual, what would the circumstances have to be to land without flaps? And if its not, what is the problem? Light weight? strong headwinds?

46 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 1, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5516 times:

The only case I can think of is if the flaps aren't working. The angle of incidence seems higher than usual as well.

Take-offs without flaps are possible in some aircraft (F70/100, A300) but I don't think they are kosher on the 330.

[Edited 2006-11-01 20:23:56]


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineAviopic From Netherlands, joined Mar 2004, 2681 posts, RR: 43
Reply 2, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5502 times:

I am not so sure this is an approach, looks more like take off to me.
There is quite some jetblast visible which to me indicates take off power instead of flight idle running engines.
Also the angle of attack seems a bit weird for a flare.



The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
User currently offlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5844 posts, RR: 15
Reply 3, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5500 times:

The note on the picture indicates a flapless landing.

Most likely, he's using a moderate power setting and a high angle of attack to arrest his descent and slow his airspeed down at the same time; i.e., he's on the back side of the power curve.



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User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3930 posts, RR: 34
Reply 4, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5501 times:

Because a flap asymmetry would be disastrous to flight, there are sensitive systems in place to stop it. Normally the flaps are driven by a single hydraulic motor in the undercarriage bay, driving rotating shafts out to the flaps. On each end of these shafts are rotary transmitters which tell thr Flap Control Unit how much they are going round. If the shafts become out of sync, the FCU cuts power to the Flap Motor and the flaps stop. Beside the transmitters are brakes that come on as well. Quite often , on the Tristar for example, these brakes can only be reset by a mechanic climbing up to them with a spanner. So a defect in the flap system and the flaps are stopped until you land. So a flapless landing can ensue. This is not so common nowadays, but not unusual in the past. It means you have to land much faster, and need a longer runway to do it.
The slats are driven and controlled by a similar system on the Tristar and also have brakes.
This is all very necessary because if one wing's flaps drove out, and not the other the aircraft would roll well beyond the aileron authority.


User currently offlineAviopic From Netherlands, joined Mar 2004, 2681 posts, RR: 43
Reply 5, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5492 times:

I know how the various systems work guys, it's my day time job.
Also I know that if you don't have flaps due to a failure you have little to choose from.
Still looking at this photo my impresion is: Take Off.  Smile

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 3):
The note on the picture indicates a flapless landing.

People can do weird things for a few extra hits.
Top Rated Photos (by Javibi Nov 1 2006 in Aviation Photography)



The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
User currently offlineRalgha From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 1614 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5462 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 1):
The angle of incidence seems higher than usual as well.

???

You mean the angle of attack? Pitch angle? The angle of incidence is the same as every other A330-301 out there.



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User currently offlineATCT From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 2223 posts, RR: 39
Reply 7, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5452 times:

Ive done a no-flap landing in a Saab 340. Hydr. Failure. It happens occaisonally. All ya have to do is fly the appch a little flatter and faster.

ATCT



"The way to get started is to quit talking and begin doing." - Walt Disney
User currently offlineAirWillie6475 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 2448 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5448 times:

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 5):
Still looking at this photo my impresion is: Take Off.

Dude, do you know how an airplane flys? Not having flaps on takeoff could be disastrous if the plane is not designed for flap less takeoffs. It won't be airborne even it's going well above the normal takeoff speed. Not having flaps on landing is not a big deal since the plane is already airborne.


User currently offlineAviopic From Netherlands, joined Mar 2004, 2681 posts, RR: 43
Reply 9, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5439 times:

Quoting ATCT (Reply 7):
All ya have to do is fly the appch a little flatter and faster.

Correct, now look at the pitch angle.
Which is why is why I think it looks strange for a flare even in case of a forced flapless landing.

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 8):
Dude, do you know how an airplane flys?

Temper your voice a little young boy.

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 8):
Not having flaps on landing is not a big deal since the plane is already airborne.

Back to the study books my friend.



The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
User currently offlineBoeingOnFinal From Norway, joined Apr 2006, 476 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5419 times:

From what it looks like, the AoA is to much to land, it would be to great a risk. Isn't the procedure to increase Vref speed, and then the AoA would be decreased?

Might get tricked by the photo, but it looks close to 10 degrees of pitch, which would be close to 11-12 AoA if the plane was on approach.

I know little about A330, but a 737 rotates 3 degrees per second on rotate point, witch would look pretty similare to this on a takeoff.



norwegianpilot.blogspot.com
User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 11, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5415 times:

No-flap landings were a QRH procedure so I don't have the good skinny in front of me, but they were pretty serious - very high landing speeds. Might even have been the reason for the big Bus having 235 MPH tires where the usual standard is 225.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 1):
I am not so sure this is an approach, looks more like take off to me.

As you well know, takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory. A no-flap landing might become necessary (What else are you going to do? Leave it up there?) But a no-flap takeoff is not an authorized maneuver in the A-330.

The only real question here is why the photographer didn't get the firetrucks in the shot. They sure as hell should have been chasing this plane.



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5413 times:

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 4):
Quite often , on the Tristar for example, these brakes can only be reset by a mechanic climbing up to them with a spanner.

Steve,

On the L-1011 only the slat brakes require a spanner (9/16") it pushes the plunger in and unlocks the brake. The flaps have a knurled knob that extends and can be pushed in by hand.

I have a funny story about the L-1011 slat asymmetry brake. I spent over twenty years in L-1011 product support and the flight controls was one of the systems I covered. In Product Support we were on call 24 hours a day. So on Christmas day about 1986 we had just sat down to Christmas dinner, when I got a phone call from a ATA mechanic in Minneapolis. He asked how many foot pounds torque does it take to reset the slat asymmetry brake? I said I didn't know exactly but a 9/16" wench (spanner) pulled with one hand is all I ever used. He said he weighed 180 pounds and he had hung on a one foot long breaker bar and the brake would not reset. I told him to change the brake because there must be something broken inside and when back to my now cold Christmas dinner. About two hours later the same mechanic calls me back and says he has finally reset the brake and the system been checked out. Then he proceeded to tell me that its 20 degrees below zero in Minneapolis and by putting a heater on the brake for an freed it up.

As for the original picture, the A330 is landing, the horizontal stabilized would be trimmed further nose down if it was taking off.


User currently offlineCRGsFuture From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 536 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5412 times:

Well the question is now, wouldn't pitching the airplane up at this speed allow some of the thrist to bleed off into lift. I know when I do no flap landing with the C172 my instructor tells me to pitch up a little more to allow air to bleed off and try to get to the 65 kts speed.


Flying you to your destination; your girlfriend to her dreams.
User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 14, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5403 times:

Quoting 474218 (Reply 12):
the horizontal stabilized would be trimmed further
nose down if it was taking off.

Not only that, but if it was taking off, it would still be solidly on the ground. Ground run would be well beyond the end of the runway and VR higher than tire speed limit.

Quoting ATCT (Reply 7):
Ive done a no-flap landing in a Saab 340.



Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 13):
no flap landing with the C172

Swept-wing A-330 vs straight-wing airplanes, virtually no basis at all for comparison. HUGE differences in flying characteristics.



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 15, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5401 times:

Quoting Ralgha (Reply 6):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 1):
The angle of incidence seems higher than usual as well.

???

You mean the angle of attack? Pitch angle? The angle of incidence is the same as every other A330-301 out there.

Brainfart sorry.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 11):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 1):
I am not so sure this is an approach, looks more like take off to me.

As you well know, takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory

I agree. But I didn't say that first thing. Dang forum automation.  Wink

BTW nice to have you back Captain Click.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineTristarsteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3930 posts, RR: 34
Reply 16, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5394 times:

Quoting 474218 (Reply 12):
On the L-1011 only the slat brakes require a spanner (9/16") it pushes the plunger in and unlocks the brake. The flaps have a knurled knob that extends and can be pushed in by hand.

Must be 20 years since I reset a L1011 Flap brake. Sorry got them back to front.
When we first had the A320 in 1988, we regularly got slats locked on engine start. Like every 10th departure. They have a mechanical lock, but you can reset them through the CFDS in the cockpit.
But they must have modified them because it hasn't happened for years.


User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5367 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 1):
The angle of incidence seems higher than usual as well.

The "Angle of Incidence" is the FIXED angle that exist between center line of the aircraft and cord line of the wing. So it can't look higher than usual, because it FIXED.


User currently offlineRunway777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5359 times:

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 5):

i agree


User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2254 posts, RR: 16
Reply 19, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5350 times:

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 14):
Swept-wing A-330 vs straight-wing airplanes, virtually no basis at all for comparison. HUGE differences in flying characteristics

Oh so right, In the MD-11 a no flap ldg is a big deal where you want to be as light as possible because Vapp will be very high and close to max tire spd. A long rnwy is needed and very little flare to prevent any floating.


User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4181 posts, RR: 37
Reply 20, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5346 times:

No flap landings in the CRJ are a big deal as well.. our max tire speed is 182... at heavier landing weights you are running right up on that speed.

Same technique as Cosmic mentioned... it is definitely a situation where you want to have the trucks standing by. Unfortunately on the CRJ a no flap landing is the most common emergency... I believe there are a couple occurences a month.

I have been pretty lucky and have only had my flaps fail at 20, which is a faster approach (in the 160's at most normal weights) but not as critical as a completely clean wing.



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 21, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5310 times:

Quoting 474218 (Reply 17):
uoting Starlionblue (Reply 1):
The angle of incidence seems higher than usual as well.

The "Angle of Incidence" is the FIXED angle that exist between center line of the aircraft and cord line of the wing. So it can't look higher than usual, because it FIXED.

Yeah I knew that. Just had a brainfart.

Then again, I can think of two aircraft with variable angle of incidence.

[Edited 2006-11-02 00:55:05]


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 22, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5303 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 21):
Then again, I can think of two aircraft with variable angle of incidence.

Well, if the chord line is a straight line from trailing edge to leading edge all airplanes with trailing edge flaps, leading edge flaps, slats or droops have variable incidence.

BTW I can only think of the wonderful F-8 Crusader. What am I overlooking?



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 61
Reply 23, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5300 times:
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HEAD DATABASE EDITOR



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 22):
BTW I can only think of the wonderful F-8 Crusader. What am I overlooking?

The Martin XB-51:






Although, I can think of one more.....



2H4


Edit: Correction.....two more....




[Edited 2006-11-02 01:16:23]


Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 24, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5294 times:

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 23):
The Martin XB-51:

You're not talking about the big crack that showed up in the wing when William Holden was flying it?



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
25 Post contains images 2H4 : No, that crack supplemented the stock variable-incidence wing with which it came equipped from the factory. There are actually four additional aircra
26 Post contains links and images Oly720man : Here are some other aircraft landing at around the same point, with flaps, for the sake of comparison.... View Large View MediumPhoto © David Jam
27 Post contains images Starlionblue : The other one I had in mind is the Corsair, which in the end is a modded Crusader. Trust 2H4 to go into orbit as usual.
28 Post contains links and images 474218 : The Corsair II (A-7) did not have the variable Angle of Incidence the F-8 Crusaders did. View Large View MediumPhoto © David Ilott
29 Post contains links and images 2H4 : I didn't think the Corsair had a variable-incidence wing.... Heh heh...I do what I can... Here are the others I've come up with: Supermarine Seagull:
30 Starlionblue : Learn something new every day. Thx!
31 Post contains images Vzlet : Incidence on the Martin XB-51 was adjustable:
32 Post contains images AJ : I would have though my portfolio held enough credibility for you not to suggest such a thing, but just to satisfy you:
33 2H4 : Man, I love that last shot, AJ. Nice work on all of them! 2H4
34 474218 : Those A330's are really hot, they can smoke their tires on takeoff. By the way AJ great photos.
35 Post contains images OPNLguy : You know, for eons, I've always wondered what that aircraft from "Towards The Unknown" was--now I know (finally!) Back to the original topic, wasn't
36 Vzlet : Not sure how I missed 2H4's heavily illustrated post. Sorry about that!
37 MDorBust : And, much further down the runway.
38 AJ : Thanks very much guys!
39 Onetogo : Yeah, was pretty amusing. As far as I know, the A300 departs regularly with no flaps, however they do throw all of the slats out.
40 Post contains images TheGreatChecko : True, but some of the newer electronically controlled aircraft, like the A320 you refered to, can be quite tempermental. I was co-pilot on a brand ne
41 XFSUgimpLB41X : So about those zero flap landings.. I did not one.. but TWO today. Same plane broke twice. 170 knots and 173 knots respectively down final. I'll post
42 Post contains links AgentM : No doubt it is landing, if you look at a larger image, you can see taxiway A3 past the airplane which is near the 16R end of the runway. Here's a sat
43 EridanMan : How Fundamentally Similar are no-flaps landings in a Heavy to their smaller cousins? (PA-28-140). I did a half dozen flap-less landings in my Cherokee
44 CF188A : could this just have been like a 40+ MPH headwind ... or something of the sort... in which flaps would actually complicate a landing. I have been on a
45 Post contains images Pilotaydin : this a/c is France registered, i bet it was being tested for delivery to a new owner
46 AJ : Sorry if you are joking, but most of PAL's widebody Airbusses carry French Overseas regsitrations (F-O).
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