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Differences In AC's 767-300?  
User currently offlineZBBYLW From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 1993 posts, RR: 6
Posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4954 times:

Hello all i have a question regarding difference in doors on AC's 763 fleet. In one of these examples we have the first sets of doors followed by two sets of window exits and a final door at the rear. Fair enough. Now in the other example we have 4 sets of doors going down the fuselage. Now i believe these would have come from CP. But still with all that aside what is the purpose of having an identical aircraft have two different options in door placement. I know that at least two of the AC 763s that have the 4 full exits have what AC refereed to as AC Club seats upfront, and a regular Y cabin. But can not confirm weather that is the same on all of these aircraft. For those of you that are interested here are two pictures of the aircraft.


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Photo © Pierre-Leo Bourbonnais
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Photo © Eric Fortin - AirTeamImages




Keep the shinny side up!
15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineOB1504 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 3447 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4948 times:

Perhaps it could make for easier boarding?

With the door configuration found on C-GGFJ, economy class passengers could board through the L2 door and not have to go through the first or business class cabins.


User currently offlineYWG From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 1147 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4936 times:

It's basically just the difference between the original Canadian Air and Air Canada birds.


Contact Winnipeg center now on 134.4, good day.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26021 posts, RR: 22
Reply 3, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4925 times:

Quoting YWG (Reply 2):
It's basically just the difference between the original Canadian Air and Air Canada birds.

Sorry, that's not correct. I am almost certain that all 763s delivered new to Canadian were the 4-door model (2 main cabin doors at the front, 2 at the rear, and 4 overwing emergency exits) as were all 763s delivered new to AC.

I believe AC only has a couple of 6-door 763s with extra pair of doors just ahead of the wing, and those aircraft did not originate with either CP or AC. The one in the photo iabove did go from CP to AC but it was originally delivered to Aer Lingus and had several other operators including SAS before CP. The 6-door 763s were generally ordered by carriers based outside North America.

Following photos of 2 of CP's original 763s showing the 4-door layout.


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Photo © Joe Pries - ATR Team
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Photo © Philippe Noret - AirTeamimages



User currently offlineZBBYLW From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 1993 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4922 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 3):
I believe AC only has a couple of 6-door 763s with extra pair of doors just ahead of the wing, and those aircraft did not originate with either CP or AC. The one in the photo iabove did go from CP to AC but it was originally delivered to Aer Lingus and had several other operators including SAS before CP. The 6-door 763s were generally ordered by carriers based outside North America.

Great, thanks for the info i was not aware of this. Do you or does anyone else know what the difference was for. Was it to make boarding easier on the 6 door models. If so why are there the 4 door models with the 4 over wing exits. Thanks in advanced.

Cheers Chris



Keep the shinny side up!
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4913 times:

The different door configurations were customer options and determine the maximum number of passengers:

The first photo the Hainan 767-3BG/ER has 3 pair of Type A door and 1 pair of Type III doors. The maximum seating is 290.

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Photo © Yu Ming



The second photo the Delta 767-332ER has 2 pair of Type A doors and 2 pair of Type III doors. The maximum seating is 290.

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Photo © Mark Mahu



The third photo of the British 767-336ER has 3 pair of Type A doors and 1 pair of Type I doors. The maximum seating is 351.

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Photo © Marlo Plate - Iberian Spotters



User currently offlineZBBYLW From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 1993 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 4902 times:

Quoting 474218 (Reply 5):
The different door configurations were customer options and determine the maximum number of passengers:

474218 Thank you very much for this very informative answer.

Cheers Chris



Keep the shinny side up!
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4867 times:

Chris,

Thanks for the kind words. Remember you can only put as many passengers in an aircraft that can get out in 90 seconds. So those bigger doors on the BA 767 allow for faster evacuation times.

Carl


User currently offlineVikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10350 posts, RR: 26
Reply 8, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4853 times:

Quoting 474218 (Reply 5):
The first photo the Hainan 767-3BG/ER has 3 pair of Type A door and 1 pair of Type III doors. The maximum seating is 290.



Quoting 474218 (Reply 5):
The second photo the Delta 767-332ER has 2 pair of Type A doors and 2 pair of Type III doors. The maximum seating is 290



Quoting 474218 (Reply 7):
Thanks for the kind words. Remember you can only put as many passengers in an aircraft that can get out in 90 seconds. So those bigger doors on the BA 767 allow for faster evacuation times.

Question regarding the two versions that each have 4 door-pairs:

Shouldn't the Hainan aircraft with 3 pairs of Type A doors and 1 pair of Type III doors be able to seat more passengers than the Delta aircraft with 2 pairs of each, as the Hainan aircraft has a larger percentage of bigger doors?

I had thought that Type A doors could allow for evacuation of 2 people at once.

Thanks!

~Vik



How can I be an admiral without my cap??!
User currently offlineJlb From Denmark, joined Nov 1999, 68 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4839 times:

Quoting 474218 (Reply 5):
The different door configurations were customer options and determine the maximum number of passengers:

Does anybody here know how many were build of each type? I would imagine the "A iii iii A" version is by far the most common.
And why did BA chose the "A A i A" version, they do not exactly have high density seating, not even in their european configuration.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26021 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4817 times:

Quoting 474218 (Reply 5):
The different door configurations were customer options and determine the maximum number of passengers:

Thanks for the further information and photos of the 3 different door configurations. I think the 763 is fairly unusual in offering that many optional door/exit configurations, although the DC-8-61/62/63 also offered a variety of door/window options (see last two photos below).

Some older types had variations depending on the model, especially combi models such as the 707-320C and DC-8-50F which had an extra emergency exit (slightly taller than the standard overwing exits) approximately even with the rear edge of the wing. That was to meet evacuation requirements since the overwing exits could be within the cargo compartment and unusable by passengers when the aircraft was used in mixed passenger/cargo configuration.

Example of all-passenger 707-320B with only the front and rear doors and 2 pairs of overwing exits, and 707-320C with main deck cargo door and the extra slightly taller emergency exit just behind the wing:


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Photo © Kjell Nilsson
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Photo © Bob Harrington - Bobqat Photographs



And all-passenger DC-8-62 and combi -62CF with main deck cargo door and extra exit in similar location as 707-320C:


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Photo © Trevor Ogle
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Photo © Marcel Walther



Example below of DC-8-63s with significantly different door/exit and cabin configurations. Have included photos of both sides as they're not the same. CP has the forward galley at the front of the aircraft but behind a small cabin with the two windows on the right side opposite the main passenger door onthe left side. That small cabin was used as a first class lounge although most of the time it had 6 economy class seats which were sold when demand warranted. That forward cabin/galley layout matched CP's earlier DC-8-40/50s. The KL DC-8-63 has the forward galley much further back, just ahead of the wing in the area where there are no windows. The forward passenger door is at the front on the left side as usual, but the galley service door on the right side is much further back in the galley area ahead of the wing.


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Photo © Bob Garrard
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Photo © Dré Peijmen




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Photo © Gerhard Plomitzer
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Photo © Robert Pittuck



User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4809 times:

Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 8):
Shouldn't the Hainan aircraft with 3 pairs of Type A doors and 1 pair of Type III doors be able to seat more passengers than the Delta aircraft with 2 pairs of each, as the Hainan aircraft has a larger percentage of bigger doors?

I got my information directly from the 767 Type Certification Data Sheet (TCDS) No. A1NM. Since the TCDS is a FAA document I don't try and interrupt what they say I just report what the read.


User currently offlineCanadianNorth From Canada, joined Aug 2002, 3395 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4770 times:

Just look at the specific type of 767-300.

Boeing uses customer codes for most of its aircraft. For example, you will always see the full name as Boeing 767-3xx, with xx being the customer code. The customer code for Air Canada is 33, and for Canadi>n Airlines it is 75.

So...
-333/ERs were delivered new to Air Canada.
-375/ERs were delivered new to Canadi>n Airlines.
-Pretty much anything else will have come from other carriers.

For example, look at the thread starter's photos. First photo is a -375/ER, so it was delivered to Canadi>n brand new from Boeing. The second photo is a -3Y0/ER, therefore it came via another carrier (or multiple carriers). Reason why the doors are different: Canadi>n used the setup seen in the first photo, and whoever as Y0 for a customer code opted for the configuration seen in photo 2.

Canadi>n Airlines was bought out and merged into Air Canada, making the majority of Air Canada's Boeing fleet a mix of 33s and 75s.


CanadianNorth



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User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4769 times:

As to the type of doors, and the maximim seating allowed, lets look at two examples.

Lockheed TriStar (standard body airplane).
Most were delivered with six large doors and two smaller doors at the rear.
Maximum seating 365 (IIRC).
However, several were delivered with eight large doors, and in this case the maximum seating allowed is 400.

B707-320B/C

Most were delivered with 2 entry doors, 2 galley doors and 4 overwing exits.
Maximum seating, 189.
However, some were also ordered and delivered with the above, and in addition, two extra exits just aft of the wing, one or each side.
Maximum seating, 215.

What the original customer wants, the customer gets...at extra cost, of course.


User currently offlineVikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10350 posts, RR: 26
Reply 14, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4762 times:

Quoting 474218 (Reply 11):
I got my information directly from the 767 Type Certification Data Sheet (TCDS) No. A1NM. Since the TCDS is a FAA document I don't try and interrupt what they say I just report what the read.

Fair enough. Thanks for providing the data.

Quoting 411A (Reply 13):
As to the type of doors, and the maximim seating allowed, lets look at two examples.

Interesting examples. Thanks again.

~Vik



How can I be an admiral without my cap??!
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 15, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4737 times:

Quoting 474218 (Reply 5):
The second photo the Delta 767-332ER has 2 pair of Type A doors and 2 pair of Type III doors. The maximum seating is 290.

DL also has a few 767-3P6ERs from Gulf Air with the three pairs of Type A doors and one pair of Type III doors. They also have at least one 767-324ER, originally built but for never delivered to CO, with the same configuration as the ex GF aircraft.

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Photo © Mick Bajcar
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Photo © Darren Wilson



Quoting CanadianNorth (Reply 12):
whoever as Y0 for a customer code

Y0 stands for GPA Group. I guess it's a leasing company, so who knows why they ordered the aircraft with that configuration.


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