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Turbine Engines Are Ruining Aviation  
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 60
Posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4167 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD DATABASE EDITOR



This was forwarded to me today. I think many TechOppers will appreciate it:

=====================================================

TURBINE ENGINES ARE RUINING AVIATION

We gotta get rid of turbines, they are ruining aviation. We need to go back to big round engines.

Anybody can start a turbine, you just need to move a switch from “OFF” to “START,” and then remember to move it back to “ON” after a while. My PC is harder to start.

Cranking a round engine requires skill, finesse and style. On some airplanes the pilots are not even allowed to do it.

Turbines start by whining for a while, then give a small lady-like “poot” and start whining louder. Round engines give a satisfying rattle-rattle, click-click BANG, more rattles, another BANG, a big macho fart or two, more clicks, a lot of smoke and finally a serious low pitch roar.

We like that. It’s a guy thing. When you start a round engine your mind is engaged and you can concentrate on the flight ahead. Starting a turbine is like flicking on a ceiling fan: useful, but hardly exciting.

Turbines don’t break often enough, leading to aircrew boredom, complacency and inattention. A round engine at speed looks and sounds like it’s going to blow at any minute. This helps concentrate the mind.

Turbines don’t have enough control levers to keep a pilot’s attention. There’s nothing to fiddle with during the flight.

Turbines smell like a Boy Scout camp full of Coleman lanterns. Round engines smell like God intended flying machines to smell.

=====================================================



2H4





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39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineXv408 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2006, 52 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4152 times:

Add V shaped engines to round ones... Difficult to beat a Merlin (with 4 in a Lanc???)

User currently offlineVikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9405 posts, RR: 27
Reply 2, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4145 times:
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Quoting 2H4 (Thread starter):
Turbines don’t break often enough, leading to aircrew boredom, complacency and inattention. A round engine at speed looks and sounds like it’s going to blow at any minute. This helps concentrate the mind.

Turbines don’t have enough control levers to keep a pilot’s attention. There’s nothing to fiddle with during the flight.

 rotfl 

Those two paragraphs cracked me up!

Suppose it's sort of like when I drive an automatic transmission....there's nothing for me to do. And I have a hand free to operate the radio at all times! I don't get it.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4140 times:

LOL!!!

I drive stick


User currently offlineMiamiair From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4102 times:

There is an art to starting the big round ones, and nothing sounds like one (maybe a Merlin).

User currently offlineBuzz From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 697 posts, RR: 22
Reply 5, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4081 times:

Hi 2H4, Buzz here. I had a good laugh when I read that one a few years ago. I made a few additions to mine.... wonder if I can cut and paste from a Word document?
Death To Turbines! Ver. 2c

We’ve got to get rid of these turbine engines, they are ruining Aviation. We need to get back to Round Engines.
(Dave says turbines are as round as you can get. What ARE you complaining about?)
(hey Dave, these guys know what kind of airplane stuff I’m talking about)

Anybody can start a turbine, you just move a switch from “OFF” to “Start” and then remember to move it back to “Run” after a while. My PC is harder to start.

Cranking a Round Engine requires skill, finesse, and style and at least 2 hands. On some aircraft (B-29) the pilots aren’t even allowed to do it. The Flight Engineer gets to start engines.

Turbines start by whining for a while, then give a small, lady-like poot and start whining louder.

Round Engines give a satisfying rattle-rattle, click-click, BANG, more rattles, another BANG, a big macho fart or two of oil smoke, and finally a serious low pitch growl. We like that, it’s a visceral, guy kind of thing.

When you start a Round Engine, your mind is engaged and you are forced to concentrate on the flight ahead. Starting a turbine engine is like switching on a ceiling fan: Useful but hardly inspiring.

Turbines don’t break often enough, leading to flight crew boredom, complacency, and inattention. A Round Engine at takeoff power looks and sounds like its going to blow apart at any minute. This helps keep your mind sharp.

Turbine engines don’t have enough levers, dials, and switches to keep a pilot’s attention. There’s nothing to fiddle with during long flights. A round engine airplane needs a flight engineer: BMEP, spark advance, mixture leaning, prop synch, mag drop, oil temp, cowl flaps – CHT.

Turbines smell like a Boy Scout camp full of Coleman Lanterns. Round Engine airplanes smell like God intended flying machines to smell: Avgas is an elixir. And when a Round Engine airplane stops dripping oil, it’s empty.

Turbine engines drink oil by the quart, and jet fuel by the barrel. Round Engines sip Avgas by the quart and drink oil by the barrel. And Avgas comes in more than one color – red, blue green, purple depending what mood you’re in today.

I think I hear the shrink coming down the hall, gotta go now.

g'day


User currently offlineLowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4047 times:

Turbines for work, pistons for pleasure. When I am shooting a circling approach to some short, slippery runway at Haystack regional at 0 dark 30, simplicity and reliability are a good thing. The radial engine is the aviation equivalent of the Harley-Davidson. Nostalgic, historic, and pleasing to the senses, but not always practical.

Quoting Buzz (Reply 5):
Turbine engines drink oil by the quart, and jet fuel by the barrel.

Unless it is a Rolls that has been taxing for a couple of hours



Proud OOTSK member
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6267 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4036 times:

Quoting 2H4 (Thread starter):
2H4

Amen!  Wink

Although, wasn't there a little more to turbine operation in the days before FADEC (like watching for hot starts, not overtemping or overtorqueing the engine and moving condition levers?). Also, don't many older turboprops (like the King Air) have prop speed adjustments (like a complex single)?



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineWrenchBender From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 1779 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4001 times:

Quoting 2H4 (Thread starter):
Turbines don’t have enough control levers to keep a pilot’s attention. There’s nothing to fiddle with during the flight.



Quoting Buzz (Reply 5):
Turbine engines don’t have enough levers, dials, and switches to keep a pilot’s attention. There’s nothing to fiddle with during long flights. A round engine airplane needs a flight engineer: BMEP, spark advance, mixture leaning, prop synch, mag drop, oil temp, cowl flaps – CHT.

I have to concur, round engines had Flight Engineers. Woe betide the Pilot that dared to touch a control lever on the engineers pedestal. (he'd probably draw back a bloody stump).
The CP-107 Argus was phased out shortly after I joined the forces(4- Wright Cyclone R-3350 18 cylinder), and the CP-121 Tracker operated from my first base for several years (2× Wright R-1820-82WA 9 cylinder).

WrenchBender



Silly Pilot, Tricks are for kids.......
User currently offlineAreopagus From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1368 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3884 times:

Old steam locomotives are full of cool levers and valves. Maybe we should adapt one of those engines to fly. (And why not? Doc Brown did it!) And it would satisfy those pilots nostalgic for the old days of "steam gauge" instrument panels.

User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13813 posts, RR: 63
Reply 10, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3773 times:

But seriously, older aircraft (in the days before EICAS, ECAM, CFDS, BITE checks... etc.) required more maintenance skills. Even on a 727 the systems were not yet integrated and for troubleshooting you usually had to get out the multimeter and chase wiring. Today most avionics related snags are just computer crashes, which get usually rectified by reseting the right circuit breaker.

Jan


User currently offlineBuzz From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 697 posts, RR: 22
Reply 11, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3757 times:

Hi MD11 Engineer, Buzz here. I think you're half right, recycling the power does seem to cure many problems (Win95 for airplanes?)

But the bulk of the odd problems I work on an Airbus (to use an example from tonight) "fmu-hc-eec1" In this case it's finding resistance out-of-limits between the #1 engine EEC and fuel metering unit. Of course when I rang out the wires all the numbers were nominal.

And yes, finding the problem on Tri-jets and Diesel 10's was "challenging" But maybe there was a few miles less wire to contend with.

g'day


User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 12, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3727 times:

Ya know, nostalgia just ain't what it used to be.

In my heart I agree with the sentiments above but as the old mariner says "Sails are for yatchs! Give me a fair wind in the stoke hold when there's cargo to move."

In heaven I think I'd park my DC-4 on a rain puddled apron, say goodnight to my copilot and stewardess, walk across the ramp (cue the "High and the Mighty music) to my 1936 oldsmobile four-door sedan, parked (magically) in the sunshine. I'd drive home over two-lane blacktop with no white stripe down the edges and the white-lead painted wooden guardrails, under the passing Baldwin 4-8-2 pulling a line of wooden boxcars, grateful for the underpass they built with wooden piling, to my home where I cannot even smell my neighbor's fireplace smoke. I could spend my days off puttering around in my blacksmith shop or splitting wood for the winter.

Might even be fun to crank up the Victrola and drop that 100-count for 35¢ solid steel needle on a 78 and listen to Bunny Berrigan hit those incredible notes in "I can't get started" but only after I help the missus with the dishes.

But here I am with a cup of coffee that was beans five minutes ago and a bowl of microwaved oatmeal; pecking away at cordless keyboard for the benefit of friends I've never even met.



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
User currently offlineHaveBlue From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2090 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3686 times:

Slam, that is one of the best and most poetic posts I've yet read. Thanks for pecking away my ethereal friend.  Smile


Here Here for Severe Clear!
User currently offlineAirgypsy From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 130 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3603 times:

Anyone that yearns for the "Good Old Days" doesn't own a tool box. I've maintained working aircraft radials and they will suck up your time and blood quick engough for you to miss the sound of a satifying thump of a turbine enigne starting up.
Change plugs every 25 hours? Change 25 gallons of oil every 50? Break your back pulling through the prop before every cold start?
Give me the good new days of turbine aviation.


User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 60
Reply 15, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3596 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD DATABASE EDITOR




Quoting SlamClick (Reply 12):
But here I am with a cup of coffee that was beans five minutes ago and a bowl of microwaved oatmeal; pecking away at cordless keyboard for the benefit of friends I've never even met.

Thank you.  thumbsup 


2H4





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User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3539 times:

Quoting 2H4 (Thread starter):
Turbines start by whining for a while, then give a small lady-like “poot”

Not for a CFM-56 on a 734!! LOL!!



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineCurmudgeon From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 695 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3534 times:

Having served my apprenticeship journeyman years toiling behind various R-985, R-1820, R-2000 and R-2800 I can wholeheartedly agree that the Radials are serious fun, and do concentrate the mind wonderfully.

I'm saving up for a 985 of my own, but do like the mindless convenience of a nice new CFM.

By the way, Slammer...parking the DC-4 in the rain was great, but not so cute driving away in the '74 Datsun B-210 to the airport Gas 'n' Go for 2 gallons and a grease burger, almost getting creamed by the Budd Dayliner at the level crossing on the way home. Waking up six hours later for another trip to Shittsville. I would have liked the High and Mighty version much better Wink



Jets are for kids
User currently offlineFlametech21 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 47 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3526 times:

Well, I cant comment too much on radials as I was born in the turbojet days. (1980, if you're really inclined to know Big grin ) Of course by the numbers, radials are a nightmare. Less speed, less thrust, more noise, more maintenance, more smoke, more oil, more failures and fires, and the list goes on and on.

But there is just some magical quality about them that makes aviation lovers just drop to their knees. I recently got to fly on an ex-AA DC-3 that was restored to near mint condition, and here I will share my thoughts:

Upon startup, I thought the engine was going to fall off the damn wing. Really, for the first few seconds I was scared. But then all that fear went away as I stared out the window at it. Now I fly rear-engines, and I've had more than my share of rides on the rear airstair door jumpseat, next to those god-awful JT8Ds, and I thought I knew the definition of loud. But this beastly DC-3 puts those pitiful old turbines to shame. It was so loud I at first thought I would need earplugs, but I quickly grew accustomed to it. Upon takeoff I was grinning ear to ear.

The flight was wonderful, and I swear the ride was smoother than on any modern airliner. I finally got the nerve to go up to the flight deck about half way through. No reinforced cockpit door on this bird, just a curtain. I guess they had no need for it in those days.

The pilots were extremely friendly, and the captain (a real greybeard, I might add), instantly gave up his seat and insisted I take it. It was a truly amazing view at about 8,000 feet. The FO saw my DFW ID dangling out of my pocket, and promptly asked to see it. What was I to say? So I gave it to him, he scanned it over for a second, and was shocked to find out I was a pilot. "Why didn't you say so?" he said. "You have control" he exclaimed, taking his hand off the yoke.

Well, I couldn't resist. I grabbed the yoke and sheepishly asked him how to engage the autopilot. They both got a hearty laugh out of this one. "There isn't one" the captain smirked. Flight director? Autothrottle? I asked. The FO shook his head no. "You are the autopilot" he chuckled.

Well, this post is getting long enough, so I'll sum it up. I hand flew us to our VFR approach to KTUL with a lot of help from them both. We chatted about aviation in general, and about the many differences yet the many things the same about working for AA and the aviation industry, then and now. It was the most amazing experience. I let the Captain land the thing, as I have no experience on taildraggers and didn't want my first experience to end up in the mud.

After we parked and the others on board exited, we stayed and chatted for almost an hour. We exchanged email addresses (ironic, I know) and I still keep loosely in touch with them. The FO even took me up on an offer to ride as an observer on an md80 ferry flight back to DFW. Made for an interesting trip back, and he had the same flabbergasted look on his face as I did when I flew with him.

I will never forget that flight on the DC-3. It had a profound effect on me that no turbine could ever recreate. And believe me, if I ever get the chance again, I would take it in a heartbeat.

Sorry about the long post. Hope you had as much fun reading it as I did writing it!  bigthumbsup 



They build them to a higher standard at Long Beach!
User currently offlineMolykote From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1337 posts, RR: 29
Reply 19, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3498 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting 2H4 (Thread starter):
Turbines don’t break often enough, leading to aircrew boredom, complacency and inattention. A round engine at speed looks and sounds like it’s going to blow at any minute. This helps concentrate the mind.

Turbines don’t have enough control levers to keep a pilot’s attention. There’s nothing to fiddle with during the flight.

Who is the Englishman that wrote this?



Speedtape - The asprin of aviation!
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 60
Reply 20, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3494 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD DATABASE EDITOR




Quoting Curmudgeon (Reply 17):
I'm saving up for a 985 of my own

Whatcha gonna hang it on?  eyebrow 


2H4





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User currently offlineCurmudgeon From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 695 posts, RR: 22
Reply 21, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3443 times:

I have this fantasy of building a Waco at home, a upf-7 preferably, and hanging a fully cowled Wasp Jr. with chrome spinner. My six year old daughter has been around the world in jets, ho-hums her way onto a 737 every couple of months. Last week a Stearman barked its way past the house and she just stood there with her mouth open, then turned to me, eyes shining with excitement. If she has the family disease I'd like her to start on radials. Taildraggin' radials.

I might start off with a Bellanca Cruiser or PA-12 just to get re-aquainted with it.

Cheers

Cur.



Jets are for kids
User currently offlineThirtyEcho From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 1639 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3430 times:

I hold the same view of radios in airplanes. I learned to fly in a Luscombe 8E; hell, it didn't even have an electrical system. What more juice do you need beyond dual magnetos?

Pilotage is the best system of navigation. If you can't see waypoints, how did you drive to the airport in the first place?

Flaps? Flaps are for rescuing a botched approach. No real pilot ever touches the damned things because he knows how to sideslip. You might get your ticket lifted if you are seen using flaps.

Unusual attitude recovery? Now, really, since your instructor taught you loops, rolls and spins before solo, what is that all about?

Fuel gauges? You dipstick the tanks before takeoff and you have calculated your comsuption with a safe margin. A lying fuel gauge is the last thing that you need.

Attitude Indicator? That is really a forget-it item; needle-ball-airspeed relies on only raw air-data and won't send you into the ground by precessing.

Gyro compass? Same precession factor and very unsafe. Since you have perfected your ability to lead and lag a magnetic compass and compensate for accelleration errors, you always know where Santa Claus lives.

That is what it was REALLY like when radials shook the earth.


User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 60
Reply 23, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3404 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD DATABASE EDITOR




Quoting Curmudgeon (Reply 21):
Last week a Stearman barked its way past the house and she just stood there with her mouth open, then turned to me, eyes shining with excitement.

Sounds like she's got the proper genes.  yes  Perhaps a trip to an airshow or fly-in is in order....

Quoting ThirtyEcho (Reply 22):

I'll just add:

Airspeed indicator? What can that tell you that the sound (and feel) of the wind through the wires cannot?  Smile


2H4





Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlineSlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 68
Reply 24, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3381 times:

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 23):
Perhaps a trip to an airshow or fly-in is in order....

Perhaps this is a topic for a whole new thread but here goes.

Opposed-engine, midwing monoplanes stressed for 12 Gs in each direction, capable of square outside snaploops are ruining airshows. They are all the same. Dare I say it? At Reno, when Sean Tucker launches, it is time to head for the porta-potties. Bor-ing!

Give me Frank Tallman bravely attempting barnstormer loops in his Grumman J-2F Duck. "pontoonovers"

Give me Bob Odegaard doing a whole airshow at "thirty-twenty" (30"hg and 2000 RPM) lazily up and over then whispering past the crowd in a flash of red and white bent-wing super Corsair. Or the late Bill Fornof doing the same thing with his Cadillac-bronze Bearcat.

Give me Cliff Howard doing flawless rolling circles to the outside in his anemic Taylorcraft.

Maybe it is time for Burt Rutan to design an airshow airplane. It could have ten horsepower for every pound of gross weight, be stressed for 40G in each direction and come with a G-suit that embraces your heart and the arteries to your brain. He could call it the "way too-eze" and it would serve to illustrate the relative pointlessness of modern airshow acro.

Like I said, nostalgia ain't what it used to be.



Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
25 Post contains images Curmudgeon : I'm almost afraid to do that to her. My old man, the Lancaster pilot, took me to an airshow at Selfridge AFB when I was six, and I couldn't catch my
26 2H4 : Great idea. Years from now, not too many kids her age will be able to say they've flown on a DC-3. 2H4
27 Soku39 : This thread has brought the largest smile to my face. This is seriously making me reconsider if I really want a job at a regional a year or two after
28 SlamClick : I would not presume to advise you on how to manage your career - I made such a hash of my own. But as I entered the waning years of my airline career
29 Post contains links WrenchBender : When I was posted to Yellowknife, NWT a few years ago. We had a French Airforce Transall do an RON. As soon as the chocks were in, the props were stil
30 Post contains images Soku39 : Well I'm 19, on the verge of my instrument rating, and invincible, I'm sure I'll still be invincible when I'm 23.   (and back in your day you guys d
31 Post contains images GQfluffy : Sounds just like my gf....but I don't think there's anything small or ladylike about her "poot"...
32 Post contains images Scooter01 : Don't know if this is the right forum to post this, but it seems to be a lot of young ( wanna-be young) people out there that write comments aboout th
33 Lowrider : Era or Frontier Flying Service would be two places to look. Alaska Cargo Express pays a little better, but is requires a little more time. Bering Air
34 Ex52tech : That could be because they don't have the experience, or the memories with airplanes that were once plentiful, and are now almost extinct. They don't
35 Scooter01 : Sorry -got a little bit mixed up there, thr year was 1993. Wonder why some of the more than 260 readers didn't catch that.
36 DC8FriendShip : Amen, brother, Amen. Last week I Fabricated (not replaced) an entire set of aileron cables for a CRJ. That was real fun, something that required brai
37 SlamClick : I know how you feel. What you were doing seems more like taxidermy than anything else. Airplanes on a stick! Always kind of a sad reminder that they
38 MD11Engineer : During my apprenticeship at the LH base in SXF (formerly East German Interflug) I worked under several grizzled old engineers with 40+ years of experi
39 ATCT : 2H4, I have to say that was pure joy to read. I am sad to say that we are a dying breed my friend. Give me a Dc-4 over an ATR anyday. I hope that when
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