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B737 Eng Fire Detection - Kidde System General  
User currently offlineCdfmxtech From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1341 posts, RR: 26
Posted (13 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 8036 times:


B737-300/400/500 Engine Fire Detection

It says that an ovht condition is set when the first alarm setting is reached. A fire condition is set when the second alarm setting is met. I understand the whol resistance/temperature relation ship. Schematics show a dashed line leading to ground above and below a solid line...which is the core. Does that mean that when the resistance level is the highest, the ground is met...or is the ground met at the first alarm setting. I always thought that the box in the E&E is monitoring resistance levels - acting as an ohmmeter of sorts. When the resistance level meets the first number, OVHT happens. When the resistance level reaches the second number, the FIRE condition happens. Somebody help

11 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineJETPILOT From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3130 posts, RR: 29
Reply 1, posted (13 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 7940 times:

I think you mean Kiddle continuos loop detectors?

JET


User currently offlineCdfmxtech From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1341 posts, RR: 26
Reply 2, posted (13 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 7933 times:

No...I'm pretty sure that I mean Kidde!!!  Big grin

User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (13 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 7936 times:

Actually,

The heat/fire detector measures capacitance of the loop. When the material separating the center and outer conductors is heated, it's dielectric properties are changed, effectively changing the capacitance of the loop.

Some of the older graviner units (Kidde bought Graviner) used to be really sensitive to water and short circuits. The systems have been since improved not to respond as easily to resistive interference like water.



User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31702 posts, RR: 56
Reply 4, posted (13 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 7928 times:

Your right, its KIDDIE fire detectors,
There is an INCONEL tube filled with a chemical whose property is such that as Temperature increases the resistance of that chemical decreases [Resistance inversely proportional to Temperature].

One ground wire is connected to the outside of the Tube,while the 2nd wire is in the centre surrounded by this chemical.

Under normal circumstances the resistance is high enough to prevent current flow between the two wires, as the temp rises the chemical resistance decreases which breaks the barrier between the two wires & this continuity is sensed by a Fire detection unit to illuminate the appropriate warning.

The difference being that there are two inconel wire sets for the fire detection system with the circuit set to permit current transfer at a particular temp.

On the -200s its 400degF for OVHT & 600degF for FIRE warning.

regds
HAWK.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineCdfmxtech From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1341 posts, RR: 26
Reply 5, posted (13 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 7915 times:

Hawk
Thanx, that one has been bothering me for awhile!!





User currently offlineJT-8D From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 423 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (13 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 7918 times:

OK, heres my 2 cents. On a typical fire/oh detection system there are two identical loops. If one shows an overheat condition, it will show o/h in the cockpit. If both show o/h, a fire will be indicated. The only systems Im aware of that show "varying " resistance is the lindberg system (made now by systron donner). In this system a gas filled tube is attached to a set of pressure switches. Low pressure=fault indication, Higher pressure=overheat, really high pressure=fire. The fire detection accy box monitors the whole system and can interpret what is a fault and what is real. The Kiddie/Fenwall loop systems read either open or closed. The older planes used the "salt" type loops, while the newer (737 ng) uses the gas type(lindberg). By salt I mean eutectic salt(excuse spelling) that drops its resistance at a certain temp..JT

User currently offlineChdmcmanus From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 374 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (13 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7910 times:

I agree with JT. The old -141 uses Systron-Donner (Helium pressure) on the engines/pylons, and Kiddie inconnel (resistance) on the wings/apu. To add to what he said about the SD, it has a pinpoint and overall heat setting.
Pylon avg 400F, discreet 950F
Fwd Cowl avg 350F, discreet 1050F
Aft Cowl avg 500F, discreet 1050F

The inconells are 195/205 C for the anti-ice, 310 F wing bleed air, and 232 C Apu, both of which only have one indication, either "on" or off".

This isn't the 747, but the principle is the same.

Regards,
ChD



"Never trust a clean Crew Chief"
User currently offlineCdfmxtech From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1341 posts, RR: 26
Reply 8, posted (13 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 7905 times:

JT/Chd,

I disagree. A system such as the engine fire detection system on most aircraft are labled A/B as you know. If tyhe sel is in the both position, then it will take a signal from both loops to get an indication...whether it be ovht or fire. Isolate it to A or B and an indication in either one will set the alarm.

Maybe the manual can say it a little better than I can...

Loop Select
The overheat detector (OVHT DET) switch on the overheat/fire protection panel lets the crew select the mode of operation. Each switch has these positions:
· NORMAL, loop select logic makes loop A and loop B agree before the alarm condition operates (AND logic).
· A, loop select logic makes loop A the only sense authority (OR logic).
· B, loop select logic makes loop B the only sense authority (OR logic).



User currently offlineJT-8D From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 423 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (13 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7904 times:

I didnt address operation of the control panel, but I agree with your last post. If you only have 1 good loop, then one loop can cause a fire indication if the switch is set to A or B. The NG airplanes will automatically switch to single loop mode if it sences a fault. The older planes had to be switched manually..JT

User currently offlineCdfmxtech From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1341 posts, RR: 26
Reply 10, posted (13 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7907 times:

>The NG airplanes will automatically switch to single >loop mode if it sences a fault. The older planes had to >be switched manually..JT

You know, I totally missed that when I was in Next Gen school. I just checked the manual - u da man!!
Damn if you don't learn (or relearn) something new every day!  Big thumbs up


User currently offlineJT-8D From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 423 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (13 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 7906 times:

Thank you sir, you are scholar and a gentleman..Jt

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