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Dirty Planes!  
User currently offlineGkyip From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 163 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 7 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4665 times:
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I came across this pic and it got me thinking...what is it that makes Air France planes so much dirtier than others? Is it where they fly to? Their cleaning schedule? MX issues?

Anyone got any ideas?


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The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee
41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKaddyuk From Wallis and Futuna, joined Nov 2001, 4126 posts, RR: 26
Reply 1, posted (7 years 7 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4663 times:

Quoting Gkyip (Thread starter):
Their cleaning schedule?

Bing-O was his name-O

Lack of cleaning causes dirty aeroplanes...



Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 2, posted (7 years 7 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4566 times:

Def Cleaning Issues added by their White Livery which gets noticed more.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlinePilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3148 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (7 years 7 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4532 times:

The dirt slows them down a bit due to added drag and weight but has nothing to do with safety.

If you think that is bad you should see some cargo operations out there!



DMI
User currently offlinePilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3148 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (7 years 7 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 4521 times:

Something I should have added when typing the first post...

At the flight school I used to work at we did a test course run in the same 172SP before, and after it was washed during the summer. The bugs on the on the airframe were causing a loss of about 4kts. When clean, the Katanas would indicate 3-5kts higher. Clean airplanes are fast airplanes.



DMI
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 5, posted (7 years 7 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4452 times:

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 3):
If you think that is bad you should see some cargo operations out there

Guess a cleaning schedule of 2-3 days should be in place.Out here it is Even for Freighters  Smile
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7405 posts, RR: 50
Reply 6, posted (7 years 7 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4311 times:
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Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 3):
The dirt slows them down a bit due to added drag and weight but has nothing to do with safety.

Actually, cleaning the aircraft form exhaust, grease, hydralic and fuel is a part of exterior maintnence and corrosion control, so it has alot to do with safety. Fluids like skydrol, and jet fuel is extremely corrosive, and should be removed between every 7-28 days. Bare metal aircraft are more susceptible to corrosive effects, even with the protective clear primer.



Made from jets!
User currently offlineN243NW From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1628 posts, RR: 20
Reply 7, posted (7 years 7 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4304 times:

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 6):
Actually, cleaning the aircraft form exhaust, grease, hydralic and fuel is a part of exterior maintnence and corrosion control, so it has alot to do with safety. Fluids like skydrol, and jet fuel is extremely corrosive, and should be removed between every 7-28 days. Bare metal aircraft are more susceptible to corrosive effects, even with the protective clear primer.

Not to mention it's a lot harder to detect possible fluid leaks on a filthy airframe.

-N243NW Big grin



B-52s don't take off. They scare the ground away.
User currently offlineEGNR From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 508 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 7 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4215 times:

Quoting Gkyip (Thread starter):
what is it that makes Air France planes so much dirtier than others?

SAS are quickly becoming a challenger to Air France's dirty aircraft crown... especially with their A340 fleet:


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7late7, A3latey, Sukhoi Superlate... what's going on?
User currently offlineJAGflyer From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 3501 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (7 years 7 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4193 times:

Do the airplanes get dirty when they fly into airports in Africa/Middle East? By Africa/Middle East I mean desert countries.


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User currently offlineGkyip From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 163 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 7 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4174 times:
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Quoting EGNR (Reply 8):
SAS are quickly becoming a challenger to Air France's dirty aircraft crown... especially with their A340 fleet:

WOW! That really is filthy!

How often are planes washed at airlines such as BA, LH, AC... (basically clean white lveries!)

Gary



The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee
User currently offlineVC-10 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 1999, 3700 posts, RR: 34
Reply 11, posted (7 years 7 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4121 times:
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Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 6):
Fluids like skydrol, and jet fuel is extremely corrosive,

Well that's news to me after nearly 30 yrs in maintenance!

All I would say is Skydrol & Titanium don't go together well.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 12, posted (7 years 7 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4041 times:

Quoting VC-10 (Reply 11):
All I would say is Skydrol & Titanium don't go together well.

Skydrol + Titanium + Higher Temperatures speed things.

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 9):
Do the airplanes get dirty when they fly into airports in Africa/Middle East? By Africa/Middle East I mean desert countries

I've noticed Aircraft frm Desert regions having very Dry Wheel well areas,with a sandy effect.

regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineZvocio79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 172 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 7 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4004 times:

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 6):
Fluids like skydrol, and jet fuel is extremely corrosive, and should be removed between every 7-28 days. Bare metal aircraft are more susceptible to corrosive effects, even with the protective clear primer

How about engine oil........BP2380. Corrosive as well ?
VC-10 this is also new to me, but not in 30 years, only 2. imagine how corroded turbo prop aircraft are, specially high wings ones.


User currently offlineAJ From Australia, joined Nov 1999, 2386 posts, RR: 24
Reply 14, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3951 times:

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 4):
Clean airplanes are fast airplanes.

Or more to the point clean planes are more fuel efficient.....our fuel conservation department has increased the washing frequency of the fleet with excellent results (especially on some of the grubbier 767s).


User currently offlineGkyip From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 163 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3946 times:
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Quoting AJ (Reply 14):
our fuel conservation department has increased the washing frequency of the fleet with excellent results

Do dirty fuselages actually cause so much drag so that the cost of washing an airliner is more cost effective? In that case, why doesn't Air France do this?

Incidentally, how much does it cost to wash, mm say a 747?

Gary



The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 16, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3883 times:

Quoting Gkyip (Reply 15):
Do dirty fuselages actually cause so much drag so that the cost of washing an airliner is more cost effective

Add even Unecessary Weight added by the dirt.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineG4LASRamper From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 170 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3879 times:

Ours get pretty dirty between washings. One got dirty enough that someone used their finger to write on the belly, "Also available in white."  Smile


"A pig that doesn't fly is just a pig." - Porco Rosso
User currently offlineKaddyuk From Wallis and Futuna, joined Nov 2001, 4126 posts, RR: 26
Reply 18, posted (7 years 7 months 16 hours ago) and read 3764 times:

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 6):
Fluids like skydrol, and jet fuel is extremely corrosive, and should be removed between every 7-28 days

The problem with skydrol is that it strips most protective coatings on the metal allowing other conditions to accelerate corrosion groath. It is also difficult at times to identify an old skydrol stain from a new, fresh one...

You will frequently see entries in the technical log asking for a "Tech Wash" to be carried out (with the snag normally deffered to next A check).

Some aircraft get dirtier than others, alot of the time it depends on how much the spray from runways hits the fuse...



Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
User currently offlineEGNR From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 508 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 7 months 2 hours ago) and read 3709 times:

Quoting Gkyip (Reply 10):
How often are planes washed at airlines such as BA, LH, AC... (basically clean white lveries!)

Some of BA's fleet get washed more often than others...

I give you G-BNWH, the B763 typically based at MAN.


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7late7, A3latey, Sukhoi Superlate... what's going on?
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (7 years 7 months 2 hours ago) and read 3698 times:

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 18):
The problem with skydrol is that it strips most protective coatings on the metal allowing other conditions to accelerate corrosion groath. It is also difficult at times to identify an old skydrol stain from a new, fresh one...

While Skydrol does strip protective coatings, if they are not phosphate ester restraint, in its current form it does not cause corrosion. Some of the earlier Skydrol Types (I seem to remember Type III was really bad) did cause erosion to the internal surfaces of servos and actuators. The internal surfaces of the servos and actuators are bare uncoated aluminum and they don't corrode.


User currently offlineGkyip From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 163 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3623 times:
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Quoting EGNR (Reply 19):
Some of BA's fleet get washed more often than others...

I give you G-BNWH, the B763 typically based at MAN.

So does this plane get washed less often as it is based at MAN? It doesn't look too bad, just around the doors where the jetway makes contact with the fuselage is what i consider to be quite dirty.

Gary



The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee
User currently offlineZvocio79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 172 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3602 times:

How I see it is that airlines clean the aircraft for appearance....dirty on the fuselage has a very insignificant amount of drag to it, almost weightless, not effect other than the looks.
But if there is dirty on pitot or static ports, or sensors, or engine compressor, turbine disk, then that's another story. But on the fuselage it self, meaningless.


User currently offlineG-CIVP From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 1314 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3253 times:

Also, white shows the dirt more than darker colours.

User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 24, posted (7 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3117 times:

Cleaning once a week helps.However the schedule determines the cleaning too.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
25 Post contains images AerospaceFan : Most informative thread! Thanks to all. I wonder how aircraft are cleaned. The physical process, I mean. Is it just some guys with brushes on the ends
26 DHHornet : Yep! + Add a bit of aerokleen (a shampoo basically) and water. 2 x men take about two hours to do a A319. Window line down,engine cowlings, undercarr
27 AerospaceFan : ^^ Great answer! Why don't they mechanize the process, though? That would allow workers just to dry off the aircraft and do the detailing, just the sa
28 Post contains images Jetjack74 : Just becuase it doesn't add up as a corrosive after 30 years of maintnence, doesn't mean it isn't. Take a look at what it does to the paint. I may no
29 HAWK21M : Out here its the Team of 15-20 Folks,armed with Rags & Cloth mops,using trestles & work stands.Normally takes 2 hrs for a B737. Soap water solutions
30 TheJoe : Yes, you're right. It is a great paint stripper but skydrol itself is not corrosive. Correct, paint is a protective coating that helps to prevent cor
31 Jetjack74 : Ok, Thanks for the correction. Cheers,
32 HAWK21M : How frequent is the polishing. The Advantage for Freighters is Very little Corrosion from Galley & Toilet Areas,hence easier to do a Major check on.
33 TheJoe : It used to be once every six or so months. The whole airframe got done, it looked fantastic! It hasn't been done for a little while now though, it's
34 Post contains images AerospaceFan : Interesting! So it's not so much different from washing a car or SUV. A very, very large car or SUV!
35 Post contains images HAWK21M : Its similiar.Only it gets done at night & Mx need to check for Left over Rags not removed. regds MEL
36 Post contains links LimaNiner : I believe Japan Airlines put the first mechanized "drive through plane wash" into operation at Narita in 1990. Here's a link to a WikiPedia article -
37 AerospaceFan : I appreciate the responses! Upon reflection, it does seem that a mechanical wash might lack the refinement of human hands, and given the value of airc
38 HAWK21M : I guess the Odd shape of an Aircraft dampens the need for an Automation Wash. regds MEL
39 Post contains links DHHornet : http://www.nordicaero.com/templates/Page.aspx?id=176 Another washer
40 Starlionblue : I would assume that kind of climate has the opposite effect. Dry sand and dust doesn't stick as well as the humid equivalent. Compare cars in Nevada
41 Post contains images HAWK21M : Even The Wheel wells of Gulf operating Aircraft are much Drier regds MEL
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