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How And When Do You Log Second In Command?  
User currently offlineFLY2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 9507 times:

So my buddies and I are thinking up ways to rack up more hours. One idea is to rent planes and have one person fly one leg, and switch and have the other person fly another leg. We'd be flying C172s under part 91.

I was wondering though, If while one person flies one leg, if the other person (in the right seat) can log SIC time, and vice versa. That way instead of logging just PIC time for the one leg, we get to log PIC + SIC time = more total time (than if it were only PIC for the leg we actually flew as PIC only). SIC time counts as total time as well, right?

I don't have my FAR/AIM with me, but I think I remember reading somewhere that the plane requires a second crewmember so you can log SIC, or was I confusing this with part 121 or 135 ops, or does it apply for any part? Or did my mind just make this up?

Thx for your help
 wave 

21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinePilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3139 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 9503 times:

The only time you may log SIC time is when it is required either by the operation or as a result of the aircraft's certification (think transport category). The 172 does not require a 2 man crew under part 91 rules. Somewhere out there a 135 operation may be required to have a 2 man crew per their ops specs or if their pilots are on duty longer than 8 hours. As a result of this you can only log the time in which you are the sole manipulator of the controls.

The only time that 2 pilots could log time in a 172 at the same time are if you are CFI giving instruciton or if you have a safety pilot. If you are doing instrument training or proficiency a safety pilot that is appropriately rated for the aircraft must be at the other controls. As a result of this you may log time while acting as a safety pilot but it is still not PIC as you are not sole manipulator of the controls.

Be very careful when trying to find loopholes to log time. To be honest you're not going to find many. If you're looking for some good experience, split a cross country to a good restaurant. Have your buddy sit left seat for one leg, you on the other and split the cost. The guy in the right seat, while not able to log the time, can play Pilot Not Flying (PNF) and operate radios, etc. You each get some cross country time, valuable CRM practice, and remain perfectly legal with no questions on grey area since you only logged the leg you were flying.

[Edited 2006-12-29 08:53:03]


DMI
User currently offlineG4LASRamper From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 170 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 9499 times:

A C-172 does not require two pilots, so ordinarily you wouldn't be able to log SIC time that way.

One way to log SIC would be to act as a safety pilot while the PIC is flying under the hood (simulated IMC). Since a safety pilot is required under that circumstance, the time can be logged as SIC.

Another way to log SIC would be as a required co-pilot under FAR 135, for things like extended flight duty time (over 8 hours), or when the destination is forecast or reported to be IFR and the operator is not certified for single-pilot IFR operations.

And of course one can log SIC if the aircraft requires it.

One thing to watch out for though. For the purpose of building time towards an ATP certificate, the only SIC time that counts is when it is logged in an aircraft that requires an SIC. Things like safety pilot or required co-pilot under FAR 135 don't count towards the 1500 total hours needed for the ATP. In 1992 when I went to have my logbooks audited prior to taking the ATP written exam, this issue came up. I ended up having to fly about 180 more hours before the LAS FSDO examiner would sign off on my logbooks. Fortunately at the time I was flying about 80 to 100 hours a month, so I didn't have to wait long.



"A pig that doesn't fly is just a pig." - Porco Rosso
User currently offlineFLY2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9432 times:

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 1):
If you're looking for some good experience, split a cross country to a good restaurant. Have your buddy sit left seat for one leg, you on the other and split the cost. The guy in the right seat, while not able to log the time, can play Pilot Not Flying (PNF) and operate radios, etc. You each get some cross country time, valuable CRM practice, and remain perfectly legal with no questions on grey area since you only logged the leg you were flying.

Ya, that was exactly what we were thinking about. For a moment we thought about logging PIC even if we were PNF, and then we saw the light and realized that would be like shooting ourselves on our feet  Yeah sure

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 1):
Be very careful when trying to find loopholes to log time. To be honest you're not going to find many.

Have you found any? Big grin

Quoting G4LASRamper (Reply 2):
One thing to watch out for though. For the purpose of building time towards an ATP certificate, the only SIC time that counts is when it is logged in an aircraft that requires an SIC.

So, say I have 100 hours total SIC time, and only 50 of those were required SIC, the other 50hrs are safety pilot SIC time. So for my ATP, they'd only count 50, correct? But would that also mean 50 hours substracted from my total time?

Quoting G4LASRamper (Reply 2):
One way to log SIC would be to act as a safety pilot while the PIC is flying under the hood (simulated IMC). Since a safety pilot is required under that circumstance, the time can be logged as SIC

Now that I think of it, if it works out that way, I'd be willing to fly under the hood, because then I get to log simulated IFR while the PNF logs SIC and viceversa.

Any more comments on the matter are greatly appreciated  yes 


User currently offlinePilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3139 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 9412 times:

I see you're at Riddle. First, be happy you're not at DAB!

Second, based on that I'm going to assume you're looking to a career in aviation. As a low time pilot, 1000 hours may seem a long way off but you shouldn't be worried. Once you get your CFI it's not difficult with a few long days to log that in a year. Most airlines only accept a few hours of simulated instrument (around 20) because they don't want a bunch of people that are doing what you plan on doing. Also, at this point the name of the game is PIC for you. Be more concerned with getting your ratings and building time the honest way than trying to find loopholes.



DMI
User currently offlineFLY2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 9404 times:

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 4):
First, be happy you're not at DAB!

I am very, very happy, and even if DAB had the same WX, the flight program is better in PRC anyways Big grin .

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 4):

Second, based on that I'm going to assume you're looking to a career in aviation. As a low time pilot, 1000 hours may seem a long way off but you shouldn't be worried. Once you get your CFI it's not difficult with a few long days to log that in a year. Most airlines only accept a few hours of simulated instrument (around 20) because they don't want a bunch of people that are doing what you plan on doing. Also, at this point the name of the game is PIC for you. Be more concerned with getting your ratings and building time the honest way than trying to find loopholes.

Ya I am planning on working for a major, eventually. Obviously starting with a regional first. Thing is, I'm not going through the CFI route, that is only my last resort.

But that's another can of worms...  Wink


User currently offlineBrownBat From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 9355 times:

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 5):

I stopped doing ride alongs because I feel guilty that I can't log the hours, believe me I've thought about your idea many times. How do you plan on going around the CFI route?


User currently onlineThePinnacleKid From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 708 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 9347 times:

Quoting G4LASRamper (Reply 2):
One way to log SIC would be to act as a safety pilot while the PIC is flying under the hood (simulated IMC). Since a safety pilot is required under that circumstance, the time can be logged as SIC.

Actually, safety pilot time would be logged as PIC.. both pilots would be logging PIC.. you couldn't log SIC because again the aircraft doesn't require a two member crew....

Logging PIC as a safety pilot however is tricky.. you cannot log the time on the ground... only airborne time.. you cannot log the approach... you cannot both log the landing... you can only log the time that you are actually serving as safety pilot... i.e. your friend is under the hood and is an Instrument Rated pilot... if you go into real IMC.. than you're use as a safety pilot is no longer required under 91 and therefor you again would not be able to log PIC...

Basically, the safety pilot thing is there only as a means for a current instrument pilot to retain or train to proficiency without having to fly with an instructor or in real IMC.. but to do so requires that the entire time he/she is under the hood operating in VFR conditions an appropriately rated pilot occupy the other seat (i.e. for a C172 in VFR = A Pvt Pilot ASEL)... hence.. BOTH are now PIC. SIC is NOT LOGGED!!!

Flip side.. I'm an F/O on the ERJ... I log SIC... I have an SIC Type Rating... I serve on an aircraft that requires by certification a two member crew... even when it is my leg to fly.. I do NOT log PIC... I only get to log SIC till I upgrade and my type rating changes to remove the restriction for SIC Privilages only.

Chris



"Sonny, did we land? or were we shot down?"
User currently offlineFLY2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 9325 times:

Quoting BrownBat (Reply 6):
How do you plan on going around the CFI route?

Very long story made short: pretty much just renting (among other things)...  Wink

Quoting ThePinnacleKid (Reply 7):
Actually, safety pilot time would be logged as PIC.. both pilots would be logging PIC.. you couldn't log SIC because again the aircraft doesn't require a two member crew....

Interesting, didn't think of it that way...


User currently offlinePilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3139 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 9319 times:

When a pilot is flying with a view-limiting device on another pilot that is rated for that category and class of aircraft must be at the controls. Thus, two pilots are required regardless of what the aircraft make and model is. The one under the foggles fits the definition of pilot in command from FAR 1.

I had this same question and posed it to my flight school's POI. This is how he interpreted the question and as a result I don't log safety pilot time as PIC.



DMI
User currently offlineTheGreatChecko From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1128 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 9311 times:

The AOPA has the following interpretation of the FAR (fair use exerpt):

Pilot-in-command time may be logged if acting as PIC.
The two pilots must agree that the safety pilot is the acting PIC.
PIC time may be logged only while the other pilot is "under-the-hood."
PIC time may be logged because FAR 61.51(e)(1)(iii) allows certificated pilots to log PIC when acting as PIC of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required by the regulations (91.109[b]) under which the flight is conducted. A safety pilot is required for "hood work."

Second-in-command time may be logged if not acting as PIC.
Usually the case if the safety pilot cannot act as PIC. An example might be when the safety pilot is not endorsed for the particular airplane (such as in a high-performance aircraft).
SIC time may be logged because FAR 61.51(f)(2) allows a pilot to log all flight time during which he acts as second in command of an aircraft under which more than one pilot is required by the regulations (91.109[b]) under which the flight is conducted.


There's more to it and to see it, you need an AOPA membership, which is well, well worth the $30 bucks. The legal services plan is a good investment as well!

http://www.aopa.org/

I've always logged under that interpretation, but short of an official FAA interpretation or having the AOPA legal services plan or a lawyer on retainer, I'd do whatever the local FSDO says.

Checko



"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
User currently offlineFlyUSCG From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 656 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 9299 times:

Just log it all as PIC. If your up with friends and your both pilots, then you are both flying. Your not going to sit there and nit pick who flew every .1 of the flight. Second, in the virtually non-existant case that someone asks about a specific C-172 flight, no one is going to prove you weren't flying and acting as "sole-manipulator". Just save yourself the time and log it all as PIC. (of course I only mean this when your flying in an a/c that you are properly rated for etc...)


Go Trojans! Fight On!
User currently offlineCorey07850 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2525 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 9297 times:

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 5):
I am very, very happy, and even if DAB had the same WX, the flight program is better in PRC anyways Big grin .

That's why I love ERAU... Not only do we have no school spirit when it comes to other schools, we have no school spirit within our own campuses


User currently offlineFlyf15 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 9289 times:

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 11):
Just log it all as PIC. If your up with friends and your both pilots, then you are both flying. Your not going to sit there and nit pick who flew every .1 of the flight. Second, in the virtually non-existant case that someone asks about a specific C-172 flight, no one is going to prove you weren't flying and acting as "sole-manipulator". Just save yourself the time and log it all as PIC. (of course I only mean this when your flying in an a/c that you are properly rated for etc...)

Please don't do this. The truth is that nobody knows if everything goes right, but if you guys have an incident (such as a forced off-field landing) and the FAA gets involved and want to know what your experience in the aircraft is.... You'll have 50 hours PIC, your friend will have 50 hours PIC, and the aircraft will have 50 hours of flight time. Pretty soon your off-field landing will be the least of your worries, you'll be worried about keeping your certificates while you have a falsification of records case going against you.

Do things right and don't try to squeak by with anything. I would have no concern over taking my logbook to an inspector right this moment and explaning to him how I logged every minute of every column in every flight and backing up everything with FAR definitions of PIC, night time, etc. I challenge every of you beginning pilots out there to do the same.... even though a few hours may seem huge to you right now, in the grand scheme of things, they're not much... and not worth it at all if you can't back it up or have to get really tricky in explaining how you were able to log it.



Also, please don't make the mistake of assuming that everyone tells you that you can do it and everyone arounds you does it, so it must be legit... that the exact same thought process that everyone else is following. There are so many things I see pilots do that they are 100% convinced is right and has not even the slightest bit of shadiness or incorrectness to it, but is flat out unsafe and/or illegal. If you're unsure and can't prove it to yourself using official sources (ie: your FAR/AIM), don't do it no matter what you buddies at the flight school say.


User currently onlineThePinnacleKid From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 708 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 9246 times:

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 5):
Ya I am planning on working for a major, eventually. Obviously starting with a regional first. Thing is, I'm not going through the CFI route, that is only my last resort.

Get your CFI... Use your CFI... instructing may not be glamorous... It may not always be fun... It will be somewhat dangerous and stressful... BUT, it is, in my opinion, one of the most helpful things you can do for yourself to become a better pilot.

On the plus side... most regionals will value you A LOT more than someone who is applying that only built hours renting a plane. I have a few friends that were flat out turned down by my employer and told at the end of the interview "Great job, please reapply in 90 days after you have some dual given." Pretty harsh... but just shows what my carrier values... Soooooo.. now my buddy is trying to get his resume in the door at other carriers still (over a year of trying) and works as an agent for an airline just doing ground ops... still (going on 3 yrs)... while I get to fly an ERJ.

Chris



"Sonny, did we land? or were we shot down?"
User currently offlineFLY2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9220 times:

Quoting Corey07850 (Reply 12):
Not only do we have no school spirit when it comes to other schools, we have no school spirit within our own campuses

I didn't hear a word from anybody in DAB when we lost one of our most senior IPs and our chief flight instructor in the mid-air accident.

AND, I was one of the first people to join the facebook groups supporting DAB.

So we're even.


Anyways, read my posts on the thread about the DAB tornado in civ/av.

Quoting ThePinnacleKid (Reply 14):
On the plus side... most regionals will value you A LOT more than someone who is applying that only built hours renting a plane. I have a few friends that were flat out turned down by my employer and told at the end of the interview "Great job, please reapply in 90 days after you have some dual given." Pretty harsh... but just shows what my carrier values... Soooooo.. now my buddy is trying to get his resume in the door at other carriers still (over a year of trying) and works as an agent for an airline just doing ground ops... still (going on 3 yrs)... while I get to fly an ERJ.

Interesting, I'll keep that in mind.

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 13):
Please don't do this.

I (we) will not...


I've got another question though...

Does the person under the hood need to be IFR licensed? Suppose the person under the hood is an IFR student, and the PNF (which would be logging PIC, right?) is already IFR rated, but not a CFI. Is that a problem?

Thx alot guys, you've all been really helpful.

O, and happy new year by the way!  champagne 


User currently onlineThePinnacleKid From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 708 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 9199 times:

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 15):
Does the person under the hood need to be IFR licensed? Suppose the person under the hood is an IFR student, and the PNF (which would be logging PIC, right?) is already IFR rated, but not a CFI. Is that a problem?

Yes.. the person under the hood must already hold an instrument rating otherwise, it would be a training flight thus requiring an instructor.

The safety pilot does NOT have to have an instrument rating..... just has to be appropriately rated for the aircraft being flown in the conditions being flown...

Chris



"Sonny, did we land? or were we shot down?"
User currently offlineFlyf15 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 9172 times:

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 15):
Does the person under the hood need to be IFR licensed? Suppose the person under the hood is an IFR student, and the PNF (which would be logging PIC, right?) is already IFR rated, but not a CFI. Is that a problem?

Actually, no, neither pilot has to be instrument rated. You have to be instrument rated to fly an airplane under IFR conditions or in operations that require IFR. When you're out doing practice instrument work using a hood, both pilots can be nothing more than Private Pilot ASEL.... as long as you're flying around VFR.


User currently onlineThePinnacleKid From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 708 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 9127 times:

Alright... time to end the debate... I'm somewhat wrong in my original post and so are most others on this issue in their posts... so I had to dig out the answer straight from the best reference in the world (for pilots) that i used as an instructor and use still when I have questions:

Everything Explained for the Professional Pilot by Richie Lengel



Safety Pilot: [91.109(b)(1), 61.51(g)(3), 61.56]

1. Must be at least a Private Pilot with category (i.e., airplane, rotorcraft, glider, lighter-than-air, or powered-lift) & class (i.e., single-engine land, single-engine sea, multi-engine land, multi-engine sea) ratings appropriate for the aircraft and have a current medical. NOTE - The rotorcraft category has two classes: helicopter and gyroplane.

2. A current flight review is necessary only if the safety pilot has agreed to be the ACTING PIC.

3. Three takeoffs and landings in the past 90 days would only be necessary if the safety pilot has agreed to be the ACTING PIC AND passengers will be onboard.

4. A "complex" , "high performance" , "high altitude" , or "tailwheel" endorsement is NOT necessary unless the safety pilot has agreed to be the ACTING PIC.

5. An Instrument Rating is NOT necessary unless the flight is conducted under IFR and the safety pilot agrees to be the ACTING PIC (the safety pilot's name would have to be on the flight plan).

6. The safety pilot is a required crewmember and MAY log the time as Second-In-Command time.

7. IF the safety pilot has the necessary endorsements and AGREES to be the ACTING PIC, BOTH pilots may log PIC time while the flying pilot is "under-the-hood" and is the "sole manimpulator of the controls" (FAA legal opinion).

8. 61.51(g)(3) states: "for the purpose of logging instrument time to meet the recent instrument experience requirements..." a Safety Pilot is necessary. This is implying that the only time a Safety Pilot can be used (for logging purposes) is when an INSTRUMENT rated pilot is working to maintain or regain currency, which would seem to prohibit the use of the safety pilot loophole in order for a safety pilot to build significant time.

9. If the pilot under the hood is logging the time for instrument currency, the NAME of the safety pilot must be noted in that pilot's logbook.



Hope that helps,
Chris



"Sonny, did we land? or were we shot down?"
User currently offlineFLY2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 9111 times:

Quoting ThePinnacleKid (Reply 18):
Hope that helps

Excellent info. Thanks!


User currently onlineThePinnacleKid From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 708 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 9090 times:

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 19):
Thanks!

More than welcome.

-Chris

PS - buy that book.. if I remember its around 60 or so bucks.. but it is WELL worth it.. trust me!



"Sonny, did we land? or were we shot down?"
User currently offlinePilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3139 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 9086 times:

Chris,

Thanks for the claification. Sounds like between all of us we had almost all of it covered!  Smile

There's an old saying that goes something like this:

"Ask 5 FAA inspectors the same question and you'll likely get 5 different answers".



DMI
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