Jawed From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 482 posts, RR: 0 Posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3983 times:
I took a 17-hour non-stop flight in a Malaysian Airlines 777 from EWR to DXB the other day. I'd like to know how the crew rotates duties in the cockpit. Obviously the same two people don't fly the entire way.
How many pilots and F/O's are on the plane, total?
When do they switch duties?
Do the pilot and F/O swap simultaneously as a team with another team of two, or do they switch individually?
Do airlines save money by making flightcrews fly/sleep/fly on one flight (ie flying more than one segment), or does a flightcrew only fly a single segment on such a long flight?
AirWillie6475 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 2448 posts, RR: 1 Reply 1, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3858 times:
Quoting Jawed (Thread starter): How many pilots and F/O's are on the plane, total?
When do they switch duties?
I'm not sure about that part of the world but in the U.S, pilots can't fly more than 8 hours a day at the controls. In long haul, usually there is only one CA, one FO, and the rest relief pilots. As for how many, that would depend on the length of the flight and the flight rules that airline is operating under. However for ultra long haul flights such as yours, I'm guessing there has to be at least 3 relief pilots.
PanPan From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 103 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3688 times:
Was that a charter flight?? Malasia doesn't fly Newark to Dubai. Their Newark flight(which is a 772) stops in Stockholm on the way to Kuala Lumpur.
Jawed From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 482 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3635 times:
I was pretty sure it was 17 hours actually. Perhaps it was the flight back (the reverse) that was 17 hours. I took the flight in the year 1999, and at that time it was a non-stop Malaysian Air flight in a 777 from Newark to Dubai.
It has been a very long day for me but these two quotes seem to not agree with eachother. Also can a 777 that was available in 1999 fly 17 hours non stop? Just some interesting questions.
DrP From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 280 posts, RR: 5 Reply 9, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3561 times:
Anyway, to answer the question -
Quoting Jawed (Thread starter): How many pilots and F/O's are on the plane, total?
There will be two sets of crew - ie 2 x Capts and 2 x FO's. Sometimes it would be possible to have 1 x Capt and 3 x FO's provided that at least one of the FO has an APIC (Acting Pilot In Command) rating, so he can relieve the Capt.
Usually the first crew would fly the first 11/12 hrs of flight, and the second crew would take over. This obviously varies from airline to airline. There will be bunks in the flight deck for either crews to rest. This is a requirement as rest taken on board contributes to how long a duty you can do.
Quoting Jawed (Thread starter): Do the pilot and F/O swap simultaneously as a team with another team of two, or do they switch individually?
They will swap one at a time I presume, as you cannot leave the aircraft with no-one at the controls as per SOP's.
Quoting Jawed (Thread starter): Do airlines save money by making flightcrews fly/sleep/fly on one flight (ie flying more than one segment), or does a flightcrew only fly a single segment on such a long flight?
In a word, yes. Many trans-pacific flights especially could not operate without this rule, as for many airlines the max duty for a single crew would be about 13/14 hrs.
Jawed From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 482 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3426 times:
Sorry, when I said "the other day", I meant in 1999. English is not my native language
Zvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 66 Reply 13, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks ago) and read 3306 times:
With the prospect of nonstop SYD/MEL-LHR flights sometime in the future, there has been some consideration given to how to crew flights of 20-22 hours. As far as I know, no jurisdiction yet has rules in place. One interesting idea is to have five pilots, two of which would be on duty for take-off and landing, say 3-4 hours at the start and end of the flight. They would be off duty the remainder of the flight. The other three pilots would rotate through the intermediate period, two flying and one resting. I believe each sub-group would need its own captain.
Starlionblue From Hong Kong, joined Feb 2004, 15866 posts, RR: 66 Reply 15, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3265 times:
Quoting Zvezda (Reply 13): I believe each sub-group would need its own captain.
I don't know. As far as I have seen on AA, with three pilots the two F/Os are sometimes on duty with the Captain resting. Only during cruise though. But maybe I'm seeing things.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - from Citadel by John Ringo
Zvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 66 Reply 16, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3252 times:
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 15): I don't know. As far as I have seen on AA, with three pilots the two F/Os are sometimes on duty with the Captain resting. Only during cruise though. But maybe I'm seeing things.
Right, but even with the captain resting, he's still The Captain and on duty in that sense. There are some situations for which he would have to be roused. I don't think you want to do that in the 20-22 scenario. The team that will be landing needs to be fully rested.
TristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3687 posts, RR: 34 Reply 17, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3251 times:
Quoting PanPan (Reply 4): Their Newark flight(which is a 772) stops in Stockholm on the way to Kuala Lumpur.
The present MH090/091 has an actual flight time of about 19hrs 30. Can go up and down more than hour depending on the winds. The sector KUL-ARN is about 11hrs 30 and ARN-EWR is just under 8 hours. On the longer segment there are two crews. Two captains and two F/Os. On the shorter sector there is usually one crew of two, but occasionally when the flight time is forecast over 8 hours then there is a crew of three, One captain and two F/Os. I haven't seen a three man crew for a long time.
Starlionblue From Hong Kong, joined Feb 2004, 15866 posts, RR: 66 Reply 18, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3220 times:
Quoting Zvezda (Reply 16): Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 15):
I don't know. As far as I have seen on AA, with three pilots the two F/Os are sometimes on duty with the Captain resting. Only during cruise though. But maybe I'm seeing things.
Right, but even with the captain resting, he's still The Captain and on duty in that sense. There are some situations for which he would have to be roused. I don't think you want to do that in the 20-22 scenario. The team that will be landing needs to be fully rested.
Yes I see what you mean. But potentially you could have 2 Captains and 4 F/Os. So you have one rested Captain for takeoff and one for landing.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - from Citadel by John Ringo
Zvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 66 Reply 19, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3156 times:
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 18): But potentially you could have 2 Captains and 4 F/Os. So you have one rested Captain for takeoff and one for landing.
Why have a crew of six if a crew of five can do the job? Not only does one more pilot need to be paid for a very long flight, but the crew rest area requirements increase at the expense of revenue seats.
WestJetForLife From Canada, joined Jun 2005, 814 posts, RR: 2 Reply 20, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3150 times:
Now, this may seem like a stupid question, but, in the 1960s/70s/80s/early 90s, when the Flight Engineer was still around and common, did they have a replacement flight engineer for flights over 8 hours?
Now, granted, the engineer didn't do much during cruise (besides monitoring the systems from his panel), but even he would need to be refreshed, right?
TristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3687 posts, RR: 34 Reply 21, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3133 times:
Quoting WestJetForLife (Reply 20): Now, this may seem like a stupid question, but, in the 1960s/70s/80s/early 90s, when the Flight Engineer was still around and common, did they have a replacement flight engineer for flights over 8 hours?
TWA used to operate Tristars JFK-ARN. One leg was over 8 hours and one was under. They had a 3 man crew on the under 8 hour leg and an extra FO on the over 8 hour leg. There was no spare FE. The extra FO used to deadhead on the shorter sector. I think their FOs were qualified to sit at the FE seat.
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