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MEL Question  
User currently offlineNonfirm From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 434 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 3361 times:

Hello All,I would like to gather some info on different MEL special procedures from everyone.Here is the question.

1.How do you insure that if a Mel requires a special procedure (locking a valve) for example that the procedure has been completed.Do you need to write a statement in the logbook or do you just say you c/w the Mel.Also the same for undoing the procedure for troubleshooting and clearing the Mel and how much do you need to coordinate with maintenance control.Thanks in advance for the info.  airplane 

18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineMX757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 628 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 3343 times:

At CO if there is a dispatch deviation procedure (DDP) it will be listed in the remarks or exceptions column in the MEL. That DDP procedure has to be entered in the sign off block in the A/C log book.

Here's an example for a CO 757:

Pilot Report:
Center autopilot will not engage.

Corrective action:
Placarded center autopilot inop per MEL 22-10-01. A/C downgraded to CAT III Land II. Status Annuciator rotated to CAT III Land II. DDP C/W, verified flight director system is not in a single source configuration. Placards installed.

In this case the MEL DDP requires a technician to check that the flight director switches in the cockpit are not in a single source configuration before every flight. A log page item has to be entered stating that the DDP has been C/W until the center autopilot is fixed.

Once the autopilot is fixed you don't have to reference the MEL anymore in the corrective action block. All that has to be entered is the maintenance manual reference and the CAT status.

Here is the sign off.

Write up:
Reference log page 7XXXXX, MEL 20-10-01 . Center Autopilot inop.

Corrective action.
Removed and replaced center FCC per AMM 22-11-01. Ops checks good. MCDP test 30 passed. A/C upgraded to CAT III Land III. Status Annuciator rotated to CAT III Land III. Placards removed.

This is how we do MEL procedures at CO, other airlines MEL policies and procedures are of course different.

[Edited 2007-01-19 13:15:47]

[Edited 2007-01-19 13:16:51]


Is it broke...? Yeah I'll fix it.
User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 2, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 3338 times:

The MEL verbage denotes any maint action required. These procedures are not done by the flight crew. Any "unflagged" item (no maint action) is just handled by the crew procedurally and a maint write up is done. Only maint can clear the deferred item. The MEL should always be checked with any inop item because it may affect other systems that may restrict your flight such as MNPS or RVSM. My last flight had the coffee maker inop! We checked the MEL but it looked like we still could go. The only action required was the addition of 2 thermoses.

User currently offlineTroubleshooter From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 423 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 3268 times:

Quoting MX757 (Reply 1):
Corrective action.
Removed and replaced center FCC per AMM 22-11-01. Ops checks good. MCDP test 30 passed. A/C upgraded to CAT III Land III. Status Annuciator rotated to CAT III Land III. Placards removed.

No simulated CAT III approach? In our company we perform a "land verify test" or "autoland test" to ensure proper operation of the CAT III relevant systems. But before we upgrade the aircraft for CAT III operation, the crew has to perform a successful simulated CAT III approach and fill out a special form.



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User currently offlineFr8Mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5452 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 3260 times:

Quite simply, per the FAR's, the mechanic signing the corrective action block is certifying that the work was accompished using the approproiate references.

That being said, "Deferred per MEL XX-XX-XXX, DMP accomplished, placard installed" or some variation is what I've seen the most of.

Quoting Troubleshooter (Reply 3):
No simulated CAT III approach?

Not required here either. A satisfactory 30/40 (B757/B767) satisfies the requirement for routine issues. Repeaters, alerts and some other special cases require a successful flight confidence check.



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User currently offlineVC-10 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 1999, 3701 posts, RR: 34
Reply 5, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 3259 times:
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I would hazard a guess that AMM 22-11-01 will specify an a/land test as part of the functions.


The way I have always done it is to write "XXXX valve deactivated ref MEL XX-XX-X and raise an Operational DD.


User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week ago) and read 3247 times:

I'm surprised. Here if a jet is downgraded to CATII/CHKIII it must perform a check CATIII app and ldg before it is upgraded back to CATIII. In some cases avionics dept can do a simulated CATIII with their ground equip.

User currently offlineValcory From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 89 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 8 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3221 times:

Quoting Nonfirm (Thread starter):
1.How do you insure that if a Mel requires a special procedure (locking a valve) for example that the procedure has been completed

The Mel Manual will tell you what need to be done etc


User currently offlineRJwrench85 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 8 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3217 times:

At my previous employer we had to write in "Continued ops per Mel XX-XX-XX-X. "M" Actions Complied with" because of people not following the actions

User currently offlineAogdesk From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 935 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (7 years 8 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3196 times:

Nonfirm,

When referencing possible relief in our MEL, the MEL will state explicitly if maintenance action is required to meet the conditions for dispatch. Your example of locking (out) a valve is a good one, very common. While the final responsibility for ensuring that the actual task is complied with lies with the mechanic, I believe that in many airlines Mtc. Control is just as culpable. How you accept that responsibility when you're a thousand miles away and talking with an FBO mechanic is beyond me.  Wink (No disrespect to FBO mechanics there either)
As to the latter portion of your question, I've seen mechanics sign off MEL's as per the MEL (which includes the DMP/DDP) and referencing the specific DMP/DDP.....I guess its another variance between airlines.


User currently offlineMX757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 628 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (7 years 8 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3179 times:

Quoting Troubleshooter (Reply 3):
No simulated CAT III approach? In our company we perform a "land verify test" or "autoland test" to ensure proper operation of the CAT III relevant systems. But before we upgrade the aircraft for CAT III operation, the crew has to perform a successful simulated CAT III approach and fill out a special form.

We use to have a check CAT III approach done by the pilots when we first got the 757/767 but the company got the FAA to buy off on test 30 for CAT upgrade a few years ago. I was also surprised how CO managed to get the feds to buy off on test 30 and not test 40. On the 737 fleet we have to do the land verify bite test to upgrade the CAT status.

Like I said before every company has different policies and procedures.



Is it broke...? Yeah I'll fix it.
User currently offlineNonfirm From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 434 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 8 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3163 times:

Quoting MX757 (Reply 1):
In this case the MEL DDP requires a technician to check that the flight director switches in the cockpit are not in a single source configuration before every flight. A log page item has to be entered stating that the DDP has been C/W until the center autopilot is fixed.

This brings up another point.Do you have a symbol in you Mel book the tells you this is a re accruing maint item.

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 2):
The MEL verbage denotes any maint action required. These procedures are not done by the flight crew. Any "unflagged" item (no maint action) is just handled by the crew procedurally and a maint write up is done. Only maint can clear the deferred item. The MEL should always be checked with any inop item because it may affect other systems that may restrict your flight such as MNPS or RVSM. My last flight had the coffee maker inop! We checked the MEL but it looked like we still could go. The only action required was the addition of 2 thermoses.

We have items that the flt crew can Mel and pull c/b's for.We just have to complete the paper work when the a/c arrives.

Quoting RJwrench85 (Reply 8):
At my previous employer we had to write in "Continued ops per Mel XX-XX-XX-X. "M" Actions Complied with" because of people not following the actions

Did the maintenance controller remind you that you had a maint procedure to accomplish.

Quoting Aogdesk (Reply 9):
How you accept that responsibility when you're a thousand miles away

It is not the responsibility i have the question about.I guess what i am trying to get from everyone is when you apply the mel and talk to the maint controller do they remind you that their are procedures that need to be accomplished.The reason i ask is because we have a 100 % read back w/maint cont on all of the mel verbage and procedures that need to be accomplished.Then we go perform the procedure and get the placard info.They will not issue us a control number until the maintenance procedure is accomplished.And like everyone we have to write a statement saying we c/w.This is the same when we clear the Mel as well.
 airplane 


User currently offlineMX757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 628 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (7 years 8 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3155 times:

Quoting Nonfirm (Reply 11):
This brings up another point.Do you have a symbol in you Mel book the tells you this is a re accruing maint item.

No there is no symbol. But if maintenance fails to perform the DDP and initiate a log item there will be a gate call as soon pilots come on board and notice that little yellow sticker on the front of log book. It is also in the pilots flight release paper work to check and insure that maintenance has performed the DDP.



Is it broke...? Yeah I'll fix it.
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 13, posted (7 years 8 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3123 times:

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 2):
My last flight had the coffee maker inop! We checked the MEL but it looked like we still could go. The only action required was the addition of 2 thermoses

Is the Coffee maker in the MEL.Which type are you reffering too.
As Items non Airworthiness critical [galley items] & Mandatory [Wings,Engines]are never in the MEL.

regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineCharlienorth From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1122 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (7 years 8 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3103 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 13):
Is the Coffee maker in the MEL.Which type are you reffering too.
As Items non Airworthiness critical [galley items] & Mandatory [Wings,Engines]are never in the MEL.

regds
MEL

At the three airlines I have worked for the coffeemakers,oven etc are covered in the MEL in a generic chapter 25 reference to galley equipment,other cabin items are covered in another part of Ch. 25,"passenger convenience items"here in The States non airworthiness items are category "D" and have 120 days on them


User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 15, posted (7 years 8 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3095 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 13):
As Items non Airworthiness critical [galley items] & Mandatory [Wings,Engines]are never in the MEL.

Hawk21m, Charlienorth beat me to it but was correct. It's under chapt. 25 (in ours) section re: convenience items which all sorts of misc. stuff falls. eg. the chiller, oven, reading lights, foot rests, crew reat bunks, etc.
P.S. yes, the coffee maker was deferred inop but I was just kidding about looking it up to see if we could go.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 16, posted (7 years 8 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3087 times:

Quoting Charlienorth (Reply 14):



Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 15):

Interesting.I guess We never notice this on our Freighters.Thanks.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineJetMech From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 2699 posts, RR: 53
Reply 17, posted (7 years 8 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2991 times:

G'day techies  Smile,

I though I may as well add my two cents to this thread.

Quoting Nonfirm (Thread starter):

This particular MEL requires a special procedure;



This MEL refers to the deactivation of a valve used to isolate fuel movement to and from a tailplane trim tank. The MEL tells you there is one such valve fitted, and that dispatch is possible with this valve inop. The important information comes in the remarks and exceptions column.

The (m) symbol means that maintenance action is required to apply this MEL. These maintenance actions are to transfer all fuel out of the trim tank, and to ensure that the isolation valve is selected closed. For something as important as this, you would probably manually lock the valve out to be safe.

The MEL is arranged along the same Airline Transport Association (ATA) chapter system as the Maintenance Manual (MM), thus the maintenance procedures related to this valve are easy to find.

The (o) symbol means that the application of this MEL will result in operational restrictions that the flight crew must be aware of. As you can see, the loss of the trim tank has very important implications for the ZFW and longitudinal trim calculations.

The "P" inside the square means that if you apply this MEL, due to the fact you cannot fix the isolation valve at the time (nil spares, insufficient ground time), you must write it up as a deferred defect (DD) in the performance category. Performance DD's are the most critical as they have a direct effect on the flight performance envelope of the aircraft. In this situation, you would have less range due to having less fuel, and the fact that the trim tank cannot be used to trim the aircraft.

The tech log entry for this MEL would state something along the lines that you could not fix the isolation valve at the time, and that dispatch is allowed under the MEL which you have applied. IIRC, the rectification interval "C" is 10 days.

Big version: Width: 1024 Height: 768 File size: 50kb


This MEL refers to the engine bleed air supply system. Four such bleed air supplies are fitted with dispatch under the MEL allowable if three are available. The "S" inside the square means that if you apply this MEL, due to the fact you cannot fix the bleed valve at the time (nil spares, insufficient ground time), you must write it up as a deferred defect (DD) in the significant category.

This category is not as critical as the performance category, but more important than a plain DD. The loss of one engine bleed supply has no performance restrictions but it is significant because system redundancy has been lost. If the aircraft was flying under this MEL and another engine bleed failed, there would be immediate performance penalties in the form of a lower cruise altitude, loss of range and most likely, a diversion. Again, the rectification interval is "C", or 10 days.



This MEL deals with a cargo hold air extraction fan. Dispatch with this fan is allowable under this MEL. Due to the non critical nature of this fan, the rectification interval is much longer at "D", which IIRC is 60 days. The (o) signifies an operational effect that the crew should be aware of. In this case, it would probably have to do with not carrying animals as cargo.

Regards, JetMech



JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair.
User currently offlineTroubleshooter From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 423 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (7 years 8 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2972 times:

Well done, JetMech!

More information about MEL usage in general can be obtained HERE (8MB!!!)



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