BHMBAGLOCK From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2693 posts, RR: 6 Posted (3 years 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8767 times:
My father and several of his friends have a 49 yr lease on about 2 million acres in Mozambique that is being used for a safari business. It's taken them about two years to really get things going and now they would like to purchase an aircraft for use in ferrying people and supplies from Pemba. It would also be good to have a dedicated aircraft for emergency use as they are several hours drive from the nearest medical help. In addition, they have a few hundred acres on the coast that will be developed for deep sea fishing over the next few years.
The large parcel of land does have several dirt strips and there is one on the small parcel as well. Piston power is out as the availability of AvGas is simply not there but Jet-A is easily available. To keep things as simple as possible, they'd like to stay with a single engine model but this is not absolute. RUgged and reliable are absolute requirements as the properties are remote and unimproved. STOL capabilities are also a plus.
Aircraft needs to seat at least 7 passengers and be easily adaptable to carrying cargo as well. There will be no need for floats. New or very low time aircraft would be preferred but realistically $ 1.5 million is the top end of what can be spent.
The primary uses of the aircraft will be for flying customers and employees to and from the hunting/fishing camps and Pemba but it will also be used for cargo and possibly some game spotting although a second smaller aircraft like a turbine conversion 182 or possibly a diesel converted Cessna running Jet-A is more likely for this role.
Here are the aircraft being considered at this point:
1. Cessna Grand Caravan - Definitely proven in this role but relatively expensive.
2. Pacific Aerospace PAC750XL - A very tough aircraft with similar load carrying capabilities but seriously lacking in range. Not a huge thing but still a limitation - definitely would make the ferry more complicated. It's also a bit slower than the Caravan. A plus is that a new PAC750XL runs about the same as a Grand Caravan with 3000-4000 hours. Low wing design could be a bit of an issue for short strips.
3. Quest Kodiak - Doesn't carry quite as much as the first two options but has excellent range and amazing STOL capabliities. The downside is that it has no track record in the field and isn't yet certified although they seem to be very close. The price is very similar to the PAC750XL. The designer previously designed the Glasair so he does have a good track record.
4. Turbo Porter - A bit small and relatively expensive, not really a player. Much as I love a Helio Stallion it's in the same boat. They're also a pain in the ass to load cargo as tail draggers.
5. DHC-3 Otter - This could work if a very well restored one could be found at the right price. A ragged out old maintenance hog is not what is needed.
6. Turbine conversion Beaver - As with the Otter, this coudl be feasible if the right one could be found. A bit small but could work.
7. A few twins that might be considered, again if the right deal came around:
DHC-6
GAF Nomad
Now for the questions/discussion. First, any and all opinions of the above aircraft. Second, any other good candidates out there that you can think of? In particular, are there any East European models that might be suitable but aren't well known here in the States? Something like a SkyTruck but about half the size.
The Caravan would be a really safe bet in this respect. Also, I imagine it would be far better than the alternatives in terms of sourcing parts and finding qualified technicians.
A very capable (and considerably less expensive) alternative to a Caravan. Huge cargo doors, great handling, (relatively) plentiful parts, and a very known quantity among remote maintenance facilities.
How much do you value having two engines? If it's not a top priority, I'd just assume go with a turbine 206 or 207 and not worry about the A) increased maintenance, B) increased fuel burn, and C) multi-engine training and proficiency issues.
I know I'm forgetting some others....I'll keep thinking about it, and will post any additional ideas.
If you end up going with one of my recommendations, perhaps a finder's fee in the form of a safari and/or deep sea fishing trip wouldn't be out of the question....
L-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 28644 posts, RR: 70 Reply 2, posted (3 years 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8743 times:
For what you are doing I would suspect the first three airplanes I would like of are the Caravan, Porter and Trotter.
Probably if I had to list them in order it would be Caravan, Trotter and then the Porter.....depending on the condition of the strips.....if you have some rough ones then you will want the conventional geared Porter.
Single engine otters are pretty rare and if you do find one, you will probably have to convert it over to turbine power. Ditto for Beavers.
PAC Aero would probably be my 4th or 5th choice. I have been up close to one in person and it isn't a bad looking airplane, but it has the sin of being uglier then hell.
I don't think there is anything wrong with the Soloy conversions, but I think by the time you spend the money for one you would be better off importing avgas for a stock 206 or 207.
I don't think there are enough GAF Nomads around to even consider them.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8277 posts, RR: 64 Reply 3, posted (3 years 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8738 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW DATABASE EDITOR
Quoting L-188 (Reply 2): depending on the condition of the strips.....if you have some rough ones then you will want the conventional geared Porter.
I've always thought it would be cool to see a Caravan with a tailwheel conversion and tundra tires. If there was an STC, do you think anyone would buy it?
Interesting, I'll look into this a bit. The location is very convenient as well for checking it out.
Quoting 2H4 (Reply 1): If you end up going with one of my recommendations, perhaps a finder's fee in the form of a safari and/or deep sea fishing trip wouldn't be out of the question..
I can certainly ask.
Quoting L-188 (Reply 2): Single engine otters are pretty rare and if you do find one, you will probably have to convert it over to turbine power. Ditto for Beavers.
They are fairly rare but most I've seen are already converted. As I mentioned, it would definitely take finding the right one for this to be an option.
Quoting L-188 (Reply 2): PAC Aero would probably be my 4th or 5th choice. I have been up close to one in person and it isn't a bad looking airplane, but it has the sin of being uglier then hell.
You're confusing me. Is it "isn't a bad looking airplane" or "uglier then hell"? Personally I think it's fairly ugly but that's really not an issue. Those guys know how to build a tough aircraft and that counts for a lot. Ag and skydiving are two of the toughest types of operations that exist and these are their primary markets.
Quoting L-188 (Reply 2): I don't think there are enough GAF Nomads around to even consider them.
This is the one that really got whopped with the ugly stick! They're actually not hard to find as long as you look in Australia/NZ.
Personally, I really want to see the Kodiak in person. On paper it's very impressive. They're supposed to be at Sun n Fun in April so I'll probably check it out then.
Quoting 2H4 (Reply 3): I've always thought it would be cool to see a Caravan with a tailwheel conversion and tundra tires. If there was an STC, do you think anyone would buy it?
You'd definitely have to rework the exhaust unless you like starting brush fires.
I confused myself.... I was trying to say that it isn't an atractive aircraft. And you are correct, looks aren't everything. And the low wing would help on soft fields.
Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 4): They're actually not hard to find as long as you look in Australia/NZ.
True, Another thought is engine support. There aren't too many platforms that use the Allison engines. Which is also a ding on the Soloy conversions.
These are very nice, but too small for what's needed.
I don't know, if you are moving a small party out then you might be looking at too big of airplanes. A lot of bear hunters use 2 seat supercubs exclusively.
I got to see one two years ago at the Alaska Aviation Trade Show...in fact I think the prototype is the only one that is existant at this time. I liked it. The only part I didn't like was the cargo door was hinged at the top and only opened to horizontal at the gound. I can just see somebody banging the hell out of it with a forklift trying to load freight into it.....and I told the guys with the airplane that.
One other quick thought. You are in a hot and high conditions there right? You might want to check with Aero-twin of Anchorage Alaska. They have an STC for a conversion of the Caravan that replaces the 600HP PT6 with an 850HP Garrett. The Garrett is a more efficent engine the the Pratt but not as bulletproof IMHO.
There is also a company in Texas that has a stretched Caravan mod that uses a 1200HP Garret and adds something like 8 feet to a Caravan.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
Metroliner From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 1012 posts, RR: 1 Reply 7, posted (3 years 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 8716 times:
i'd put in a vote for the cessna caravan, if only because it's popular, so parts shouldn't be too hard to come by, even in africa.
a more obscure type might prove a pain to maintain, whereas cessna have a great reputation (their business with fedex is a good sign) and have been building tough single-engine high-wing designs to cope with green student pilots since prehistoric times.
L-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 28644 posts, RR: 70 Reply 8, posted (3 years 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 8704 times:
Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Thread starter): My father and several of his friends have a 49 yr lease on about 2 million acres in Mozambique that is being used for a safari business. It's taken them about two years to really get things going and now they would like to purchase an aircraft for use in ferrying people and supplies from Pemba. It would also be good to have a dedicated aircraft for emergency use as they are several hours drive from the nearest medical help. In addition, they have a few hundred acres on the coast that will be developed for deep sea fishing over the next few years
I am afraid to ask.....what would he charge for me and my springfield.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
BHMBAGLOCK From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2693 posts, RR: 6 Reply 9, posted (3 years 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 8670 times:
Quoting L-188 (Reply 5): I don't know, if you are moving a small party out then you might be looking at too big of airplanes. A lot of bear hunters use 2 seat supercubs exclusively.
Typically they will have parties of 6-12. In many cases they will break into smaller groups and they don't all arrive/depart at the same time but in reality a 206 is just a bit too small to work. As I mentioned, they'll probably end up with a smaller a/c for spotting purposes that could also double for moving small groups. Seems like I saw something recently about a 2 strok diesel STC for the Supercub - that would work nicely. Again, they need to burn Jet-A.
Quoting L-188 (Reply 5): I got to see one two years ago at the Alaska Aviation Trade Show...in fact I think the prototype is the only one that is existant at this time. I liked it. The only part I didn't like was the cargo door was hinged at the top and only opened to horizontal at the gound. I can just see somebody banging the hell out of it with a forklift trying to load freight into it.....and I told the guys with the airplane that.
One nice thing about a top hinged door is that they are generally very easy to remove. I haven't seen their design in detail but this seems like a minor issue. The odds are that they won't be using a forklift anyway. Another advantage of top hinging is that it can be opened in flight for skydiving!
Quoting L-188 (Reply 8): I am afraid to ask.....what would he charge for me and my springfield.
I honestly don't know the specific numbers but my understanding is that depending on what you choose to hunt (you have to buy tags from the government for each animal at anywhere from around $1,000 t0o $70,000 each) plus travel, professional hunter, etc. you'll typically spend $75-150k for a trip. Waaay out of my league.
Quoting Metroliner (Reply 7): a more obscure type might prove a pain to maintain
This is a concern. There are a growing number of PAC750XLs in Africa but it's still miniscule. Obviously there aren't any Kodiaks at the moment but my understanding is that with their primary target market of missionaries the bulk of the first few years production will go to SA and Africa. Another advantage of these two is that it's practical to buy new which has its own advantages when it comes to reliablility.
SlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 9998 posts, RR: 77 Reply 10, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 8630 times:
BHMBAGLOCK From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2693 posts, RR: 6 Reply 12, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 8591 times:
Quoting ATCT (Reply 11): I know some guys flying that new Kodiak outta ID and they love it. Beats the Caravan into short strips, but a little smaller then its older brother.
The professional hunter for the camp watched the video of the Allison Ranch approach from their website today and was truly impressed.
Quoting ATCT (Reply 11): From what ive seen of it, if you want new, Go with the Kodiak.
This seems to be the way we're leaning. The only downside is that the earliest slots they have will be late '08 to mid '09. The good news is that they've submitted all their paperwork to the FAA and expect certification shortly.
SlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 9998 posts, RR: 77 Reply 13, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 8586 times:
Everything I know about it is to be found by clicking on the picture. I did see one at Long Beach California a few years ago. Almost fell clear out of my shoes laughing.
The ultimate "Polish joke" - a turbojet, biplane, eight-place cropduster.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
SlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 9998 posts, RR: 77 Reply 17, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 8570 times:
SlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 9998 posts, RR: 77 Reply 19, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 8548 times:
AT502B From South Africa, joined Dec 2004, 347 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 8526 times:
I know you prefer Turbine power but another option is the Gippsland Aero GA8 Airvan. It's built in Australia, carries a good load, is very economical and cheap. Heres the website in OZ: www.gippsaero.com , and the dealer in SA: www.airvan.co.za
Anyway, I can't wait for my next trip to Mozambique- if there were any ag-flying jobs and I could talk my wife into moving, I'd be there in a Heartbeat.
Of course I'm a taildragger operator so my dream Bush plane would be the Porter or turbine Otter.
ZBBYLW From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 1827 posts, RR: 8 Reply 21, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 8512 times:
Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Thread starter): 5. DHC-3 Otter - This could work if a very well restored one could be found at the right price. A ragged out old maintenance hog is not what is needed.
6. Turbine conversion Beaver - As with the Otter, this coudl be feasible if the right one could be found. A bit small but could work.
I am going to have to go with the Otter on this. If not the Otter the Turbine Beaver.... Wonderfull A/C a bit of a pain to fill up but besides that they are great in short and soft strips... I would go for one of these...
BHMBAGLOCK From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2693 posts, RR: 6 Reply 22, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 8492 times:
Quoting AT502B (Reply 20): I know you prefer Turbine power but another option is the Gippsland Aero GA8 Airvan. It's built in Australia, carries a good load, is very economical and cheap. Heres the website in OZ: www.gippsaero.com , and the dealer in SA: www.airvan.co.za
I haven't seen this one before. Very interesting but the specs show it to be severely underpowered IMHO. If they'd put a turbine on it they might have something.
Quoting AT502B (Reply 20): Of course I'm a taildragger operator so my dream Bush plane would be the Porter or turbine Otter.
Come on now, don't diss the Stallion! That's another great one - just not enough around. Hopefully the people talking about re-starting line aren't full of crap.
Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 21): I am going to have to go with the Otter on this. If not the Otter the Turbine Beaver.... Wonderfull A/C a bit of a pain to fill up but besides that they are great in short and soft strips... I would go for one of these...
One of these is a possibility, particularly if they decide they don't want to wait 2 years for a new build frame. The trick is finding one that's in good enough condition that you can be confident taking it to such a remote place. I've never been in a turbine Beaver but I hear they're great. Has to climb better than the radial version for sure.
Quoting A342 (Reply 14): You might also consider the An-3, a turboprop An-2 conversion. I've heard freshly overhauled and converted aircraft are quite cheap.
Anybody here have any experience with the AN-3? What type of turbine and prop are used? The closest I've come to "having experience" with this is talking to a friend who used one for a stunt about 10 years back for a TV show. The idea was to catapult from the back of a truck on the New River Gorge bridge and catch a cargo net being towed behind an AN-2. They used it because it was the slowest thing they could find that would reliably carry the load of the net. Even at that, they never succeeded as I recall.
2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8277 posts, RR: 64 Reply 23, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 8483 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW DATABASE EDITOR
Quoting SlamClick (Reply 13): Everything I know about it is to be found by clicking on the picture.
When editing/standardizing aircraft entries, I always make a special effort to make sure the M-15s are all appropriately categorized together, so that when you click on the aircraft type, you'll retrieve all M-15 shots in the database. It strikes me as an aircraft that people tend to want to learn more about.
SlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 9998 posts, RR: 77 Reply 24, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 8476 times:
Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 22): Anybody here have any experience with the AN-3?
Always be willing to consider a truck as an alternative to these. The truck is slightly faster but must circumnavigate trees and rocks where the Antonov may be able to proceed in a straight line. (subject to piloting skills)
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
25 BHMBAGLOCK: My favorite part is that they have a VIP transport variant! Boy oh boy, Trump and Gates and rest of the crew will be so jealous. That does it, we'll
26 L-188: Unfortunately the one I saw wasn't designed for it. It had a piano hinge along the top and like I said only opend out to even with the ground. You de
27 BHMBAGLOCK: I'll have to ask them if it will be certified for flight with the door removed. If so, then it should be easy to either split the door and hinge it o
28 L-188: I am more worried about the door staying attached to the airplane and turbulence over the tailplane from it. The one I saw, I don't think could have
29 BHMBAGLOCK: If the forces aren't very high then it won't have trouble staying attached. This could be an issue. I would expect that the FAA would require them to
30 A342: More about the An-3 on the manufacturer's website: http://www.polyot.su/eng/main.php?id=38 http://www.polyot.su/eng/main.php?id=67
33 BHMBAGLOCK: I agree - we really are trying to stay single engine as well. An interesting beast but it's very slow and in reality doesn't carry much more cargo th
34 A342: Ok, but on short flights, speed isn't really important. And nothing can beat its field performance !
35 L-188: OMG!!! We totally left the PC-12 out of the picture There are a couple of operators of that aircraft up here. I don't know if Illiamna Air Taxi takes
36 BHMBAGLOCK: It's a little too much. The premium for its size and range along with the pressurized fuselage put it out of the range of what's practical for this.
37 L-188: Well that might be a problem. It may not be practical for you, but your clients may expect it...Particularly considering the price range for the safa
38 BHMBAGLOCK: I neglected to mention the other main issue with the PC-12. When it comes to STOL performance, it simply isn't there. It's fine with most any "real"
39 Metroliner: pc-12 is just too much machine. again, i'd go for the caravan.
40 BHMBAGLOCK: Unless something radically surprising comes along, we've pretty much narrowed it down to the Caravan and the Kodiak. We've spoken with Quest and they
41 Dougloid: You're not limited by what's available in the states. How about a Harbin Y-12? What's the price like?
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