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"On Final" Or "On Finals"?  
User currently offlineEvan767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2957 posts, RR: 2
Posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3481 times:

This is something that has really annoyed me. I have always thought the correct term for announcing you are on your final is "on final". Now, why do people say "on finals". There is surely only ONE final so why is it plural? Which term is the correct usage?


The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
52 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6265 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3479 times:

Thanks for bringing up one of my pet peeves with this site.

It is ON FINAL

Finals are what you stress over the last week of the term in college...  mischievous 



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlinePilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3139 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3461 times:

This is a singular, not a plural. You can't be on two Finals, only FINAL.


DMI
User currently offlineConjureMe From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 36 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3453 times:

I have started noticing a lot of this terminology used here on A.net. For example, on a photo caption:

"CO 757 on short FINALS for runway..."

This always bothered me and I was starting to think that I was the one in the wrong...thanks for reassuring me!

Maybe people are thinking finals as in "final landing preparations" (tires, trailing edge, etc) instead of final as in the final segment of an approach?



Never let the plane take you somewhere your brain didn't get to five minutes ago.
User currently offlineEvan767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2957 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3450 times:

Good to hear I am not the only one how there who gets ticked by this!


The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3436 times:

Quoting ConjureMe (Reply 3):

"CO 757 on short FINALS for runway..."

Also, why does everyone like to say "short" finals? Isn't it just short if the last leg is short (with a late turn-in)?



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineEvan767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2957 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3429 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 5):
Also, why does everyone like to say "short" finals? Isn't it just short if the last leg is short (with a late turn-in)?

A final always turns into a short final a distance from the runway. I would say maybe 1-2 miles out it turns into a short final, but I am no expert.



The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
User currently offlineAirWillie6475 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 2448 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3429 times:

Final is used in the U.S. I find it that other countries use finals. Final is the last stage of the traffic pattern. There is upwind, crosswind, downwind, and final. I have no idea when people started using finals for the final approach but there you go.

User currently offlineSilver1SWA From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 4737 posts, RR: 26
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3417 times:
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While the majority in this thread seem to agree that it should be FINAL and not finals, this topic has popped up a few times over the years and it has actually been debated. It has been a pet peeve of mine as well, but there are many, MANY people that firmly believe "finals" is proper and will go through great lengths to defend it. So, I dunno...I prefer final. It's how I learned it, and it just sounds correct to me. To each their own I suppose.


ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlineEvan767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2957 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3405 times:

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 8):
MANY people that firmly believe "finals" is proper and will go through great lengths to defend it

Maybe they should learn some grammar!



The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21103 posts, RR: 56
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3372 times:

Quoting Evan767 (Thread starter):
have always thought the correct term for announcing you are on your final is "on final". Now, why do people say "on finals".

It's "final" in the US. However, other countries sometimes use "finals".

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 6):
I would say maybe 1-2 miles out it turns into a short final, but I am no expert.

In my mind, anything under a 1/2 mile final is short. Maybe one can stretch the definition to a mile, but nothing over that.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offline320tech From Turks and Caicos Islands, joined May 2004, 491 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3370 times:

Since "final" is short for "final approach", anyone who defends "finals" is on thin ice.

"Short final" is used to help other pilots spot you, just like saying "late downwind". It's not official, but if you say you're on short final, I'll look near the threshold, not a mile away.



The primary function of the design engineer is to make things difficult for the manufacturer and impossible for the AME.
User currently offlineCancidas From Poland, joined Jul 2003, 4112 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3367 times:

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 7):
Final is used in the U.S. I find it that other countries use finals. Final is the last stage of the traffic pattern. There is upwind, crosswind, downwind, and final. I have no idea when people started using finals for the final approach but there you go.

you forgot base.



"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
User currently offlineCopter808 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 993 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3359 times:

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 1):
Thanks for bringing up one of my pet peeves with this site.

It is ON FINAL

Finals are what you stress over the last week of the term in college...

This was my EXACT thought when I read the thread title!!


User currently offlineAirWillie6475 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 2448 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3357 times:

Quoting Cancidas (Reply 12):
you forgot base.

Thanks..


User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4183 posts, RR: 37
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3346 times:

I find that alot of the Europeans use "finals" on this site. I finally gave up twitching about it after noticing the consistency in its use by our buddies across the pond. I'm sure it has to do with the quirks of english english as compared to american english. Same language... but very different in many regards with the slang usage.


Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineAsstChiefMark From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3331 times:

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 15):
I find that alot of the Europeans use "finals" on this site

Just like "aircrafts."

Mark


User currently offlineIahflyr From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 23
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3283 times:

You don't hear "contact the finalS controller" do you? Or, "finalS monitor"

But according to George Carlin it is your "FINAL APPROACH"......  laughing 



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5845 posts, RR: 15
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3279 times:

This is one my aviation pet peeves.

Let's look at this grammatically:

final/finals

"That aircraft is on it's final approach."/"That aircraft is on it's finals approach."

Which is more pleasing to the ear?

Now, I would accept the word "finals" if it was known that that very aircraft had sisters in other, seperate dimensions that were known to mirror that of our own. Until those other dimensions are known to exist and can be proven, I will believe that there is only one, and that that single aircraft is completing only one final approach to the runway.

[Edited 2007-02-03 15:58:19]


Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8643 posts, RR: 75
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3267 times:

Amusing people discussing non ICAO phraseology, no legs of the circuit are defined in Annex 10, so they fall under local procedures, therefore have no standard phraseology.

However as a general rule, "on" is not used in RT procedures, it is considered superfluous and unnecessary.

ABC FINAL, or ABC FINAL RW 34R is sufficient, no need for the ON in the middle.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9483 posts, RR: 42
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3253 times:

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 7):
Final is the last stage of the traffic pattern. There is upwind, crosswind, downwind, and final



Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 16):
Just like "aircrafts."

I think that's a different thing, brought about by "aircraft" not having the usual plural form. There's nothing wrong with the word "finals", only with when it's used.  Smile


User currently offlinePeterPuck From Canada, joined Jun 2004, 318 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3141 times:

Do you guy's know what a "fanny" is? It's one thing in one place, totally different in another. Sometimes a can of coke is a "pop" sometimes it's a "soda". Who cares, as long as you get the meaning at the time.

User currently offlineThirtyEcho From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 1639 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3120 times:

There are four legs to a traffic pattern: upwind, crosswind, downwind and final. That is it.

How come the "finals" nitwits aren't also saying "downwinds"? You can be very sure of one thing: anybody who says "finals" is not a pilot of any kind. In fact, they have never darkened the doors of ground school. I don't care if you are talking about the US or Europe or Transylvania.

"Finals" makes as much sense as saying that you are pulling into your "driveways" in your car.

"Short final" means that if you look for the traffic near the approach end of the runway, and below you, you will see it.


User currently offlineThirtyEcho From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 1639 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3111 times:

Aren't I the idiot? The four legs of atraffic pattern are upwind, crosswind, downwind, base and final. My ex-WWII instructor would be mortified. Then, again, I always used to like rolling downwind direct to final.

User currently offlineEvan767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2957 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3033 times:

Quoting ThirtyEcho (Reply 22):

Well said.



The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
25 Post contains images Flyf15 : Hey man, I think thats 5.
26 ThirtyEcho : Hey man, I think thats 5. Upwind, being the takeoff, isn't usually considered. Upwind can result in a straight out departure or a turn to a vector wit
27 AirWillie6475 : Not really, the upwind is an important part of the pattern. Especially for go arounds and pattern entry. Have you ever heard of the tower give the in
28 Post contains images Spruit : Then those "Europeans" have never flown or taken an RT exam, in aviation terms it's "Final" end of discussion (Excuse the pun) Spru!
29 Vzlet : But nonetheless, a Google search on "finals AAIB", "finals CAA", "finals GATCO", etc. will generate plenty of results.
30 Ferret : Wow, I'm glad to hear others pick on this! Its interesting to me that so far, there really hasn't been anyone defending 'Finals'. The succinct argumen
31 Silver1SWA : If this discussion had opened up in the Civ Av forum, we would probably see more people defending their use of "finals".
32 Vzlet : Well, the intent of my post (#29) was to show that in Europe "finals" is commonly used and accepted. I'd consider it a cultural difference and perhap
33 Post contains images David L : or "New Years" when we say "New Year".
34 Post contains images Bond007 : ...or ... "Wimbleton" Jimbo
35 SkepticAll : I don't know what the big deal is here! Ya'll haven't seen aircrafts on finals before? LOL..........sorry, couldn't resist. Another pet peeve of mine
36 Evan767 : No, Americans only say New Years when referring to New Year's day. In which New Years is being described as possessive. We also say, "Happy New Year"
37 Post contains images David L : That's what I was referring to. I mean, do you refer to "Easters" or "Thanksgivings"? I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just stealing some of the logic
38 Evan767 : So you're telling me you guys say, "What are you doing New Year Day?"
39 Post contains images David L : No, in the same way you guys don't say "What are you doing on Easter's"? We say "What are you doing on New Year's Day" and "What are you doing at New
40 Boston92 : No, I have heard Happy New YearS, more than Happy New Year. The original example was valid in comparing this to Final and Finals.
41 CosmicCruiser : That may be the case BUT "Happy New YearS" implies New Year's (Day) never just the plural. Just as "turning FINAL" is not plural. I guess you could a
42 Post contains images David L : That was my suspicion but I didn't want to escalate the issue. Of course. I was only addressing the "language" differences brought up by others. I'm
43 Itsnotfinals : No it is only "Final" in ICAO terminalogy. I have always been repulsed by "finals" since it is only low-end flying club slang and not appropriate for
44 Post contains images KELPkid : You paid $25 just to say that? Welcome to airliners.net!
45 SansVGs : I was landing in Florida last Fall, and heard a person with an English accent calling "finals" on the radio. I immediately thought--"this is a person
46 Evan767 : I'll answer for him. If it takes that much to get a point across, then yes! I am glad my thread is making a difference in the aviation community and
47 OPNLguy : Mine also... Over here, it's "final" as in "final approach segment". The only time I've ever heard the plural form "finals" used was by ATC at DFW on
48 Post contains images SansVGs : OPNLguy, Good point. I understand what you are saying. However, if one were on an aviation radio announcing position as "Finals" everyone else on the
49 Post contains images OPNLguy : ..or, they might wonder how you planned to approach/land on two different runways at the same time... ..if you're talking about "finals" as used by a
50 Post contains images SansVGs : OPNL--Did the flying club thing in Lelystad and Northolt-- it was still "Final." Every place I go in del Mundo nowadays--still "Final." When you fly D
51 Post contains images OPNLguy : Nah, they'll just ask you which runway... We usually don't fly in to our stock symbol, but I'll add your suggestion for CMH-XXX-DAL to the list, XXX
52 Post contains images SansVGs : OPNL, I have so lost track of the Wright thing. All I know is we would LUV to have a non-stop to KDAL  Thanks for adding us to the list. I am sure th
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