Sponsor Message:
Aviation Technical / Operations Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
757-200 And BAe 146: Danger?  
User currently offlineBA787 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 2596 posts, RR: 7
Posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5502 times:

Apologies if this has been discussed before but it had not shown on the search function.


Today's edition of the Sunday Express contains an article expressing a danger in the above aircraft as some harmful toxins from the jet fumes leak into the aircraft cabins and cockpits.

Apparently members of the crew have been reporting headaches and nausea after the exposure to this fumes, and there have been apparently been hundreds of these incidents, mainly with these types of aircraft.

One pilot od the BAe 146 said there was no question of oil leaking through the oil seals and contaminating the cabin " It happens all the time, pilots just accept it as normal. Evidence from one LCC (I presume either flyBe or BAConnect) stated that between January and September 2006 there were 35 "fume events"

Is there any truth in all this, and is it as common and dangerous as this tabloid sheet is making out?

If this doesn't belong on this forum, MODs move it to Civil, but I thought I might get a more intelligent answer here

32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTroubleshooter From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 423 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 5467 times:

All BAe146 I´ve worked on smell terrible when using APU bleed for air conditioning. Especially during preparation for the first flight of the day. Operators used different procedures to handle this:
- manual temp regulation with a low duct temperature (around 30° C) to prevent possible oil fumes
- manual temp regulation with high duct temperatures (around 80°C) to "burn" all possible oil in the duct system.

I know about an investigation report from BAe Systems and the british CAA about this problem. But as I did´nt put my hands on that nice ship for a couple of years now, things may have changed. Hope some guys here with more current experience can shed some light.

By the way, we´ve had some issues of oil smell during pack operation on the EMB145 as well during the past years...



This job sucks!!! I love this job!!!
User currently offlineBA787 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 2596 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 5419 times:

Thanks, so its not just pres hype then, how dangerous is it?

User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 4071 posts, RR: 33
Reply 3, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5218 times:

There has been a lot of investigation into this. There was a big thread on pprune last year with links to all the sources.
On the B757 it is a known problem, but it is just a smell. Scientific research has proved that the amount of oil in the air is so low that it is not harmful, but a couple of BA pilots think it is and write it up in the log all the time so it causes a lot of problems.
In the early days of jet engines, all aircraft smelled oil in the cabin, especially when you turned on the bleeds, but nowadays it is not so common as seal technology has improved.
The HS 146 did have problems, I have read the reports from Australia and Sweden on it, but they are still flying.


User currently offlineRick767 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 2662 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5171 times:

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 3):
On the B757 it is a known problem, but it is just a smell

Just a smell? Excerpt from report on incident to G-CPET (10th March 2006):

"After starting both engines, the co-pilot reported that he could smell fumes and discussed the matter with the commander. After about two minutes of taxiing, the co‑pilot started to feel light-headed, euphoric and
unwell, the commander also felt light-headed and the aircraft was halted on the taxiway to see if the situation improved. Both flight crew members continued to feel abnormal - the co-pilot considered himself partially
incapacitated – but the cabin staff appeared unaffected.

"Both engines were shut down as the crew no longer felt fit to taxi the aircraft and it was towed back to the stand. During the tow, the co-pilot donned his oxygen mask....."


Source: AAIB Report



I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9239 posts, RR: 76
Reply 5, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5165 times:

from http://ashsd.afacwa.org/docs/AustSen.pdf

"2.26 There have been reports of cabin air fumes on board Australian BAe 146
aircraft since at least 1985. In 1982 the United States Federal Aviation Authority and National Transport Safety Bureau conducted tests on the BAe 146. Ansett told the Committee its initial reported fume occurrence was in 1991, when an East West Airlines crew first reported odours on the BAe 146 series 300 aircraft. East West Airlines later became part of Ansett Australia.27

2.27 The ATSB told the Committee that between 1991 and 1 November 1999,
when the Bureau gave evidence, 93 occurrences of fumes in aircraft had been
reported.

2.28 These occurrences:
… all fall into the general description of smoke, fumes or fire within the
cabin or cockpit of an aircraft from whatever source. Those occurrences
could be a simple as the spillage of food in a galley causing a fire to failure
of an electronic components causing fumes to this particular occurrence -
that is, the ingress of fumes from a failed seal within an engine - to multiple
reports of ‘nothing found’ on investigation by the operator.28

2.29 The ATSB’s only substantial investigation of fumes leaking into the cabin of a BAe 146 arose from an incident where the pilot of a National Jet Systems freight plane became incapacitated after being exposed to fumes in the cockpit while descending into Melbourne Airport in 1997. The ATSB which was then the Bureau of Air Safety (BASI) conducted an extensive inquiry of events of a similar nature and reported that the incidents were “far from rare”.29"



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineTurkee From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5152 times:

If you do searches for aviation safety incidents on http://www.atsb.gov.au you will find a GREAT number deal with fumes in the cockpit/cabin for 146s.

It is very common.


User currently offlineSK A340 From Sweden, joined Mar 2000, 845 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5137 times:

I've heard that the A340 had similar problems. Some seats in SK's A340's are more affected than others, but I can't find the article I red that described this.

/Micke


User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 4071 posts, RR: 33
Reply 8, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5126 times:

Quoting Rick767 (Reply 4):
Just a smell? Excerpt from report on incident to G-CPET (10th March 2006):

And BA did no remedial action, and the aircraft continued in service.
90pc of all oil smell reports on BA B757 come from ONE Captain.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31712 posts, RR: 56
Reply 9, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4979 times:

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 8):
.
90pc of all oil smell reports on BA B757 come from ONE Captain

Interesting Stats.
Were these fitted with the RB211-535C Engines.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 4071 posts, RR: 33
Reply 10, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4961 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 9):
Were these fitted with the RB211-535C Engines

No 535E engines . We sold all our C engines to DHL (and you)


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31712 posts, RR: 56
Reply 11, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4768 times:

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 10):
No 535E engines

Thanks.
Yeah Very Few -Cs around these days.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineFinlander From Finland, joined Jan 2006, 7 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4737 times:

Hello.

Bad "oil smell" can also come from burnt de-icing fluid and it smells really bad.
In case of Bae146/avro there should also be catalytic converter, in apu bleed duct, to prevent fumes.

Always have to remember to wait atleast 2 min before switching apu air on after apu start.

The main problem could be the oil leaking engine seal, but it comes to awareness when you use APU. Apu gives more hotter air to the bleed ducts as you know.


User currently offlineBA787 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 2596 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4712 times:

Thanks for the response in this thread, very interesting reading

User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31712 posts, RR: 56
Reply 14, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4604 times:

Quoting Finlander (Reply 12):
In case of Bae146/avro there should also be catalytic converter,

Isn't that for an Anti Ozone intake purpose.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineTroubleshooter From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 423 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (7 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4556 times:

Found one interesting link concerning this topic:
http://www.iasa.com.au/folders/Safet.../Cabin_Safety/BALPAsmellquery.html



This job sucks!!! I love this job!!!
User currently offlineCFTOA From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4303 times:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but does the CRJ have a similar problem?
I flew Jazz 8831 last week on a CRJ-705, and sat in seat 27 A, which is right beside engine #1.
during the startup sequence, I smelt a slight bit of emmision, which seemed to fade away after a minute.
Is this a similar problem to that of the BAe-146 and 752?

Cheers.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31712 posts, RR: 56
Reply 17, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4222 times:

Quoting CFTOA (Reply 16):
I smelt a slight bit of emmision, which seemed to fade away after a minute.

Was it Oil or Fuel.Probably from the Bleed Air used for Air Conditioning.

regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineCFTOA From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4210 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 17):
Was it Oil or Fuel.Probably from the Bleed Air used for Air Conditioning.

Thats what I figured it was. I smelt it from the air conditioning vent, and I think it was fuel. Thanks for your help Mel, You always have an answer  Smile

Cheers.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31712 posts, RR: 56
Reply 19, posted (7 years 10 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 4112 times:

Unburned Fuel Fumes.......How was the reaction of the other Pax.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineAccess-Air From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1940 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4064 times:

The only time I ever smelled something bad from the ducts of a BAe 146-300 was in 1991 on an Air Wisconsin, N611AW....It smelled like someone puked into the ducts......and the next time I flew on that same plane in 1993...The same smell still came out of the ducts. Either they couldn't get rid of the smell or someone repuked in the ducts....

As for fuel smells in the cabin, I would assume that pretty much all airplanes have some sort of seepage of their own exhaust back into the cabin in one way or another or at some point.

Access-Air



Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
User currently offlineCFTOA From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3978 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 19):
Unburned Fuel Fumes.......How was the reaction of the other Pax.
regds

a couple of the pax looked around, including the senior F/A. No other problems during the flight though.

Cheers.


User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3977 times:

Quoting BA787 (Thread starter):
Today's edition of the Sunday Express contains an article expressing a danger in the above aircraft as some harmful toxins from the jet fumes leak into the aircraft cabins and cockpits.

Ive heard that the WX 146s are notoirius for having smells of fumes inside the cabins.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31712 posts, RR: 56
Reply 23, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3974 times:

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 20):
....It smelled like someone puked into the ducts.

Odd description.Would that be a Fuel or Oil fume smell.

Quoting CFTOA (Reply 21):
a couple of the pax looked around, including the senior F/A

Probably all Pax would look towards the FAs to see their reaction at suc times  Smile

regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineAccess-Air From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1940 posts, RR: 12
Reply 24, posted (7 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3882 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 23):
Quoting Access-Air (Reply 20):
....It smelled like someone puked into the ducts.

Odd description.Would that be a Fuel or Oil fume smell.

I assumed it was PUKE......Ive puked a few times in my life and I know what that smells like....It just seemed to be caught in the ducting....maybe in the filters....Never considered it to be fuel or oil.....
As for fuel or oil smells coming thru ducts, I just thought it was normal....I mean with all the RAM air that the air cycling machine gets from the engines, well....any slight smells wouldnt surprise me......

In the winter you probabaly get a smell from the heating elements as they are put into service on planes. Everything has its old aroma.....People just freak out over nothing.....

Access-Air



Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
25 Access-Air : I mean Bleed Air.... Access-Air
26 Troubleshooter : It is not that easy!! Have you ever worked on the "146"? Then you would know for sure that this type of smell has nothing to do with puke. Light smel
27 HAWK21M : The B752 RB211-535 Engines if Serviced with Oil in the Higher range can cause Oil fumes in the Cockpit. regds MEL
28 Goinv : A BAe 146 runs the thrice daily service between Inverness and Gatwick. A couple of years ago there was an article, in the local paper, about fumes in
29 HAWK21M : Whats the Technical Explanation given about FL260 & the Aircraft. regds MEL
30 Goinv : sorry - this was a few years ago and I can't remember
31 Post contains images Doug_Or : The heating elements in an airliner are called the engines.... Instead of using electrical elements they use the increase in heat that comes with the
32 HAWK21M : Anyway You could Find out. regds MEL
Top Of Page
Forum Index

Reply To This Topic 757-200 And BAe 146: Danger?
Username:
No username? Sign up now!
Password: 


Forgot Password? Be reminded.
Remember me on this computer (uses cookies)
  • Tech/Ops related posts only!
  • Not Tech/Ops related? Use the other forums
  • No adverts of any kind. This includes web pages.
  • No hostile language or criticizing of others.
  • Do not post copyright protected material.
  • Use relevant and describing topics.
  • Check if your post already been discussed.
  • Check your spelling!
  • DETAILED RULES
Add Images Add SmiliesPosting Help

Please check your spelling (press "Check Spelling" above)


Similar topics:More similar topics...
Difference Between 757 And 757-200 posted Thu Mar 7 2002 00:27:02 by H. Simpson
BAe 146/ RJ Vs 737 Classic Which Burn More Fuel? posted Tue Jan 2 2007 00:04:00 by 747400sp
BAe 146/RJ Overhead Panel posted Mon Nov 13 2006 15:17:27 by Kris
Braking/Spoilers On BAe-146 posted Tue Oct 17 2006 13:55:24 by Smoose
What Engines Do The DL 757-200's Use? posted Sat Aug 5 2006 08:27:20 by Usair320
BAe 146 - Here To Stay? posted Sat Jul 22 2006 01:53:29 by BoeingOnFinal
A Smaller Twin Engines BAe 146 Design? posted Sun May 7 2006 20:30:11 by 747400sp
BAe 146/RJ Throttles Question posted Wed Mar 15 2006 14:01:30 by Kris
757-200 Varieties... Differences? posted Wed Feb 15 2006 05:34:35 by Tornado82
Diff Between CRJ-200 And ERJ-145 posted Sun Jan 29 2006 06:21:26 by Fly2YYZ

Sponsor Message:
Printer friendly format