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B777 Fuel-Cost Over A340 Fuel-Cost  
User currently offlineBmacleod From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2259 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 7396 times:

The Boeing website says that the B777-300ER and B777LR burns 20-25% per seat-mile less than the A345 and A346 respectively, but is there a chart that calculates the fuel cost savings over the A340. Let's use $60 crude as a gauge.


The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
11 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17015 posts, RR: 67
Reply 1, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 7381 times:

Dear god man! Do you know what you're starting? The fabric of space-time itself could tear!

I do not know if there is such a chart, but if the Boeing website compares a Boeing product favorably with an Airbus product, I would pour a few cups of Kosher Salt over the monitor before reading.



[ ritual bashing of this kind of statement ]

Fuel burn depends very much on the mission.

Fuel, while an important factor, is only one factor in the purchase decision. Even with fuel costs being higher (assuming it is so), the 345/346 may still be a better purchase due to:
- Delivery time availability.
- Leasing rates.
- Purchase price.
- Price of training.
- Commonality.
- Price of maintenance.
- Opinions of A.nutters.

[ /ritual bashing of this kind of statement ]



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineN231YE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 7366 times:

Quoting Bmacleod (Thread starter):
The Boeing website says that the B777-300ER and B777LR burns 20-25% per seat-mile less than the A345 and A346 respectively

Anybody trying to sell a product over their competitor will make their product seem better, based on one or a few facts alone, just as Starlionblue has pointed out.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30877 posts, RR: 86
Reply 3, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 7357 times:
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Any such chart would be theoretical in nature since neither plane would have identical seating as a 777 is wider then an A340 so it can hold one more Business Class and Economy Class seat per row with identical seat widths. So with identical row-counts, a 777 will hold more seats which lowers it's fuel-burn per seat even if both planes burned identical amounts of fuel on a mission profile (since you are distributing that cost over more seats on the 777).

And then you have to factor in all of the variables Starlionblue noted...


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17015 posts, RR: 67
Reply 4, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 7354 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
Any such chart would be theoretical in nature since neither plane would have identical seating as a 777 is wider then an A340 so it can hold one more Business Class and Economy Class seat per row with identical seat widths. So with identical row-counts, a 777 will hold more seats which lowers it's fuel-burn per seat even if both planes burned identical amounts of fuel on a mission profile (since you are distributing that cost over more seats on the 777).

Very true. Boeing is "fairly" comparing seat mile cost. However, you can easily skew the numbers since larger aircraft (with more seats) tend to have lower seat mile costs. A correct comparison would be seat mile cost given the same number of seats. But even doing it that way cargo capability, quite a significant factor, is being completely ignored.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8999 posts, RR: 75
Reply 5, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 7247 times:

Quoting Bmacleod (Thread starter):
The Boeing website says that the B777-300ER and B777LR burns 20-25% per seat-mile less than the A345 and A346 respectively, but is there a chart that calculates the fuel cost savings over the A340.

Have a look at http://www.icao.int/icao/en/ro/allpirg/allpirg4/wp28app.pdf, it might be of some assistance.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12981 posts, RR: 100
Reply 6, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 7206 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 1):
Dear god man! Do you know what you're starting? The fabric of space-time itself could tear!

 rotfl 

a.net having unfriendly A vs. B? Never... Couldn't possibly happen.  Wink

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineArniepie From Belgium, joined Aug 2005, 1265 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 7185 times:

Quoting Zeke (Reply 5):

Have a look at http://www.icao.int/icao/en/ro/allpirg/allpirg4/wp28app.pdf, it might be of some assistance.

Could you plz give an idea about the content because the link doesn't work for me?

Thx in advance



[edit post]
User currently offlineBrendows From Norway, joined Apr 2006, 1020 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 7179 times:

Quoting Arniepie (Reply 7):

Could you plz give an idea about the content because the link doesn't work for me?

Remove the comma at the end of the link, then it works  Smile
Like this:
http://www.icao.int/icao/en/ro/allpirg/allpirg4/wp28app.pdf


User currently offlineZarniwoop From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 265 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7148 times:

Quoting Brendows (Reply 8):
http://www.icao.int/icao/en/ro/allpirg/allpirg4/wp28app.pdf

Interesting chart... I don't have any idea of it's accuracy but it makes more sense if you add an extra column for cost/seat, I will add it below for some selected models:

plane / Total operating cost per hour / Number of seats / Cost per seat per hour

(Number of seats is typical 3 class capacity as per a.net plane info)

B777-200 / $4,149 / 305 / $13.60
B747-400 / $6,761 / 416 / $16.25
MD11 / $4,615 / 298 / $15.48
A330-200 / $3,701 / 256 / $14.45
A340-300 / $4,073 / 303 / $13.44
A340-600 / $4,850 / 316 / $15.34

I apologise in advance for any mis-calucations or inaccuracy, just thought it would be an interesting comparison.


User currently offlineOldAeroGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3500 posts, RR: 66
Reply 10, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 7075 times:

Quoting Zeke (Reply 5):
Have a look at http://www.icao.int/icao/en/ro/allpirg/allpirg4/wp28app.pdf, it might be of some assistance.

How can this chart be showing actual A346 operating costs for Summer 2000 when the airplane did not EIS until 2002?



Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
User currently offlineArniePie From Belgium, joined Aug 2005, 1265 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (7 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7035 times:

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 10):
How can this chart be showing actual A346 operating costs for Summer 2000 when the airplane did not EIS until 2002?

Also there seems something very odd if you compare the 737-800 with the 700,
700 more expensive to operate and higher fuel burn than the 800, I don't think that can be true.

BTW thx Brendows , didn't see that comma.



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