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CFM56 Or IAE V2500  
User currently offlineTEDSKI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (13 years 1 month 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 9363 times:

Which one of these two powerplants has had the best reliability on the Airbus A320 family?

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineVC-10 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 1999, 3697 posts, RR: 34
Reply 1, posted (13 years 1 month 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 9343 times:
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If spare engine availability is anything to go by CFM56. Spare IAE's are like rocking horse SH 1T

User currently offlineTEDSKI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (13 years 1 month 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 9337 times:

Being that P&W is a partner in IAE, wouldn't they have V2500 spare parts for aircraft in the USA and Rolls Royce in Europe?

User currently offlineVC-10 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 1999, 3697 posts, RR: 34
Reply 3, posted (13 years 1 month 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 9329 times:
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All I know is that when we wanted a complete engine we always had to get a loaner until the one we removed was returned from o/haul

User currently offlineCrosswind From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 2598 posts, RR: 58
Reply 4, posted (13 years 1 month 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 9332 times:
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CFMI concede in advertisements that the IAE V2500 has lower fuel consumption, but that the CFM56 has lower maintenance costs.

Make of that what you want...


User currently offlineJT-8D From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 423 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (13 years 1 month 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 9301 times:

CFM, always, CFM..JT

User currently offlineTimT From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 168 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (13 years 1 month 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 9281 times:

CFM's are way too cool-- on our 319-320 fleet the manual specs 2 (two) different CFM's. Got on and need the other? Change the FADEC! There you go. Might be able to do that on the IAE too. Just don't have any experience with them.


User currently offlineTEDSKI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (13 years 1 month 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 9283 times:

Are there any UA engine mechanics out there that can give me their opinion on the IAE V2500 that power their A319s & A320s?

User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31660 posts, RR: 56
Reply 8, posted (8 years 5 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 9176 times:

Recently most A320 operators are changing over from V2500 equipped A320s to CFM56B operated A320s.
Is there a Technical reason for that choice or purely Marketing.
The query is because for so many years the A320s out here were choosing V2500s until a few months back.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineA/c train From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 501 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 9131 times:

from a maintenance point of view, most jobs on the V2500 are simpler than the CFM-56, there are some really crap borescope plug locations on the CFM !!! Fan arrangements etc are simpler on V25.
Spares/ engine spares, I second VC-10, it seems harder to source a V2500 than a CFM, must be a maintrol nightmare if your airline doesnt hold any serviceable spare V25's.
As far as reliability, each airline will look at that question with their own view, I havnt heard of too many AOG's involving CFM engines.


User currently offlineTristarsteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3971 posts, RR: 34
Reply 10, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 9105 times:

We get both here. I work on a line station and in 18 years of CFM and 5 years of IAE, I have changed a starter on an IAE, and err thats it. We get about 4 a day. IAE advantage is that it doesn't use oil. I average 2 lts/day on CFM and 1 lt/week on IAE.

User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24729 posts, RR: 46
Reply 11, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 9098 times:

Having done the analysis on this specific subject previously I'd say the following.

The V2500 is a newer design, has a slight fuel burn advantage, and tends to degrade at a slower rate in EGT margins and consumption bias then the CFM56.

However both engines are very competitive and have gone thru several upgrades over the years, with CFM working on their latest "CFM56 Tech" package due out in 2007 which is to further reduce emissions along with a small fuel consumption improvement.

Due to the very competitive nature of the engines, operators often simply choose based on price or fleet commonality.

In my opinion, one cant loose with either choice, however I'd give the V2500 an ever so slight advantage.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineA319XFW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 9076 times:

Quoting Crosswind (Reply 4):
CFMI concede in advertisements that the IAE V2500 has lower fuel consumption, but that the CFM56 has lower maintenance costs.

Make of that what you want...

An engine specialist at XFW that I spoke to was also of this opinion. That is why IAE are trying to make the V25000 more maintenance friendly and reduce the mx costs.

Quoting A/c train (Reply 9):
from a maintenance point of view, most jobs on the V2500 are simpler than the CFM-56, there are some really crap borescope plug locations on the CFM !!! Fan arrangements etc are simpler on V25.

From talking to an AC mech, he said that they prefered doing maintenace on the CFM (compared to the IAE on the jetBlue a/c they did). This might of course be that they were used to the CFM from years on the the AC fleet. Also the thrust reverse mechanism on the CFM is simpler than on the IAE.
(A320tech - before you say anything, go blame Dale!)


User currently offlineDl757md From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1562 posts, RR: 16
Reply 13, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 8997 times:

Quoting A/c train (Reply 9):
Fan arrangements etc are simpler on V25.

I've done many fan blade lubes on both engines. The V2500 may have a slightly simpler fan design but the removal and installation on the CFM56-7 is far easier and quicker.

DL757Md



757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24729 posts, RR: 46
Reply 14, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 8970 times:

Here is a timely article on the V2500 series engine.

http://www.aviationindustrygroup.com...iaev2500adominantpow-1137-1143.pdf



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineA/c train From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 501 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (8 years 5 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 8933 times:

DL757MD, You've obviously never had to apply the baked on coating to the fan blades on a CFM ?
its wide chord blades all the way for me!


User currently offlineDl757md From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1562 posts, RR: 16
Reply 16, posted (8 years 5 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 8911 times:

Quoting A/c train (Reply 15):
its wide chord blades all the way for me!

The CFM56-7 (which is what I was referring to) on the next generation 737 has 24 wide chord blades just like the V2500. I wouldn't compare a CFM56-3 engine with 36 blades to the V2500. They're two different generations of powerplant. The only fair comparison of the V2500 to a CFM56 is to the -7 series.

DL757Md



757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
User currently offlineA/c train From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 501 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (8 years 5 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 8830 times:

My bad, I was comparing the older CFM with midspan shrouds

User currently offline320tech From Turks and Caicos Islands, joined May 2004, 491 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (8 years 5 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 8787 times:

(A320tech - before you say anything, go blame Dale!)

Hey, I haven't even said anything yet.  Smile

My impression, based on limited V2500 experience and lots of CFM, is that CFM's are easier to maintain. I have heard from others that V2500's are cheaper to buy. It seems likely to me that the difference is not significant enough to make a real difference, and so the deciding factor will be (as mentioned) fleet commonality and similar factors.

My airline seems happy with the CFM's, jetBlue seems happy with the V2500's.

In short, beats me.



The primary function of the design engineer is to make things difficult for the manufacturer and impossible for the AME.
User currently offlineMolykote From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1340 posts, RR: 29
Reply 19, posted (8 years 5 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 8748 times:

Quoting TimT (Reply 6):
CFM's are way too cool-- on our 319-320 fleet the manual specs 2 (two) different CFM's. Got on and need the other? Change the FADEC! There you go. Might be able to do that on the IAE too. Just don't have any experience with them.

My understanding:

The two 'different' CFM56-5B engines for the A320 family include a "/P" series and a series not designated with the "/P" suffix. I believe the /P suffix indicates that some of the high pressure rotors employ a more efficient "3-D" (misnomer) airfoil section that non-/P engines lack. This is an actual hardware difference on the rotors and is of course independent of the FADEC installed. If you are familiar with the AMM (and it looks like you might be) the /P engine sometimes has different serviceable limits than the non-P counterpart.

- Each engine serial number has an "N1 modifier" associated with it. This N1 modifier is a measure of how a given engine performed in a test cell. When engines are moved between aircraft and may require a different thrust installation this N1 modifier is used in calculations to uprate or derate a given engine at an appropriate level.

- The thrust level of an engine is changed (perhaps more accurately "programmed") by installing a "data plug" that screws onto the ECU and conveys program information that sets the engine thrust output to the level desired by the operator. A given spare engine may have multiple data plugs tailored to its specific engine serial number and kept on standby for a later date if/when a change in thrust or new installation is desired for the engine.

- Each engine has an Engine Data Plate
This data plate is required for flight per FAR. Following a thrust level change as per above or the running of an engine in a test cell at any time the observed N1 modifier status and current thrust configuration are stamped onto the data plate.

Aside from the /P and non-/P difference between CFM56-5Bs, the only hardware difference (if you don't count the programmed thrust plug) is an additional sense line installed on the A319 (CFM56-5B6 or -5B6/P). This sense line is not installed on the A320 (CFM56-5B4) or A321 (CFM56-5B3) variants of the engine.

So.......
As far as hardware similarity is concerned (within a /P or non-/P family), the A320 and A321 have the same engine with exception of different thrust plug programming. The A319 configuration has an extra sense line installed. Both configurations can be achieved from the same engine serial number with no more than a couple hours of work to remove or install the sense line depending on which way you wish to go. No change (apart from screwing in a different thrust plug) is necessary to go A320<-->A321

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 13):
Quoting A/c train (Reply 9):
Fan arrangements etc are simpler on V25.

I've done many fan blade lubes on both engines. The V2500 may have a slightly simpler fan design but the removal and installation on the CFM56-7 is far easier and quicker.

CFM56-5B is the relevant model if we are talking about an apples-apples narrowbus comparison.

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 16):
The CFM56-7 (which is what I was referring to) on the next generation 737 has 24 wide chord blades just like the V2500. I wouldn't compare a CFM56-3 engine with 36 blades to the V2500. They're two different generations of powerplant. The only fair comparison of the V2500 to a CFM56 is to the -7 series.

In my opinion the only fair comparison is the -5B to the V2500. The V2500 is not available for comparison to a -7 due to the fact that the engines can't be installed on a common airframe for evaluation. I do understand where you are going with the similar appearance of the -7 and V2500 blades but no market competition exists between the -7 and V2500.



Speedtape - The asprin of aviation!
User currently offlineA319XFW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 5 months 3 days ago) and read 8739 times:

Quoting 320tech (Reply 18):
(A320tech - before you say anything, go blame Dale!)

Hey, I haven't even said anything yet.

It was my pre-emptive strike refering to what I remembered hearing in YWG!  Smile

I was wondering - what kind of effect does the non-circular inlet have on the 737 CFM's due to the lower landing gear?
Surely you have some performance reduction compared to the fully circular ones, as the air flow will be disturbed by it?


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31660 posts, RR: 56
Reply 21, posted (8 years 5 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 8660 times:

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 12):
That is why IAE are trying to make the V2500 more maintenance friendly and reduce the mx costs.

What Mods.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineA319XFW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 5 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 8601 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 21):
What Mods.

Don't know. All I heard was they were improving the maintenance costs for it.
Sorry.


User currently offlineScarebus03 From Ireland, joined Apr 2005, 303 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (8 years 5 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 8581 times:

Having a considerable amount of experience maintaining both types of engines my runaway favourite is the CFM56-5. I still have nightmares about the early V2500-A1s they were real heartbreakers. The A5 series is a much better engine than the A1 but I have had much more in-service V2500s fail borescope inspections than CFMs. The V2500 is quieter, uses less fuel, has way lower oil consumption and has better acceleration than the CFM. The CFM is easier to work on, has better on wing time between overhauls but is more expensive to choose as an option for the A32F (or used to be anyway). I can't wait to see a new V2500!

Brgds

SB03



No faults found......................
User currently offlineA319XFW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 5 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 8528 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 21):
What Mods.
regds
MEL

Here you go, straight from IAE themselves.

http://www.i-a-e.com/select/index.shtm


User currently offlineAnxebla From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 25, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 8308 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 8):
Recently most A320 operators are changing over from V2500 equipped A320s to CFM56B operated A320s.

did you say most? What airlines are they?

Quoting Scarebus03 (Reply 23):
The V2500 is quieter, uses less fuel, has way lower oil consumption and has better acceleration than the CFM.

Do you know what engine type is a better seller on the A320 family? So far I know it is IAE. Am I wrong? Thanks in advance  Smile


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