Sponsor Message:
Aviation Technical / Operations Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Seaplanes And Flying Boats (What Are The Obstacle)  
User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 9006 times:

I'm wondering if it's possible with modern day technology to operate large jet-powered seaplanes and flying boats? It would allow far larger airplane designs since there wouldn't be as many restrictions on footprint pressure, and airplane dimensions.

Alternatively, operating within standard footprint pressure and runway size requirements, it could be fitted with retractable gears, and be able to land on water in the gears up configuration producing an 'amphibious' design. The Russians built such a type of design with high-mounted jet-engines that worked apparently with some degree of success. Such an amphibious design could operate out of every single runway that a regular jet-plane could operate out of AND could operate in the water. It could open up a whole new range of places to operate out of, including the Carribean and such.

The biggest issue that I see would be night-landings. The best idea I've thought of is using some type of radar-altimeter design that could determine the height of the swells and waves.

Andrea K

14 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 8990 times:

There are four major obstacles that need to be overcome:

1) Calm water. Seaplanes need calm water to operate in. Although common in inland lakes, calm water is not very common anywhere else. Relatively calm winds that don't even bother runway operations makes water choppy. You need sheltered harbors to operate large sea planes out of... or good luck regarding the weather.

2) Take-off speed. Getting a Goose or Cessna off water at 65 knots is one thing. Getting a large jet up to 155 knots is another. Water creates much more drag then tires do. Any large jet would need a huge surplus of power to get up to take off sped on water.

3) Safety. Landing and taking off on water is dangerous. Very dangerous. Screw up a landing and plant a wheel hard on the runway and you'll most likely get away with it. Plant a pontoon hard in water and you'll spin the plane around that wing. Not a good thought at 155.

4) Availability. Most large cities don't have large land-able bodies of water nearby that are conspicuously empty of sea traffic. Neither Boeing nor Airbus would be likely to develop a new transport category aircraft for such a narrow market.


User currently offlineStarglider From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 678 posts, RR: 44
Reply 2, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 8988 times:

Interesting topic.

In the late 1950s a large jet powered seaplane was flown and saw limited operational service. It was the Martin P6M Seamaster:

Big version: Width: 481 Height: 200 File size: 11kb
Martin P6M Seamaster

Big version: Width: 684 Height: 336 File size: 22kb
Martin Seamaster


They were effectively seagoing B-52s, having a small crew of four and a gross take-off weight of 160,000 lbs (72,575 kgs). The technology involved in its design was the latest known and included four Pratt & Whitney J75-P-2 turbojet engines of 17,500 lbs (7,938 kgs) thrust mounted on top of a highly swept shoulder-mounted drooped wing which had a span of 100 ft (30.48 m).

The tactical concept behind the Seamaster was that it could operate in small numbers and be refueled and rearmed by submarines or other small naval craft. It was undoubtedly the most sophisticated flying boat ever constructed.


And here is something that might interest you regarding development of a six-engined hull-type supersonic seaplane:

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/ca...asa.gov/19930090160_1993090160.pdf


Starglider


User currently offlineATCT From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 2272 posts, RR: 38
Reply 3, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 8979 times:

Check out the Russians,
Theyre the ones that experimented with Jet powered sea planes alot. (not to mention "ground effect" flyers aka Ekronaplans).

Anywho as one who's flown a floatplane (C185) and a seaplane (G-44 Widgeon) I can say that yes, screwing up a landing on floats, it'll ruin your day. Regarding a hulled aircraft, its also wise to be soft on the landing, but Its more forgiveable.

Also, look into the Boeing 314's of the 30's. Stick some jets on there and ya might have an idea, but along with floats/hulls come ALOT of drag, not only on the surface of the water but also inflight.

ATCT



"The way to get started is to quit talking and begin doing." - Walt Disney
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29791 posts, RR: 58
Reply 4, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 8979 times:

Honestly I would never put jets on a flying boat.

Turboprops are much more appropriate for the operating range in questions.


Can you imagine the turbulence comming off a stepped boat hull at 350Kts flight cruise?



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineFredT From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2002, 2185 posts, RR: 26
Reply 5, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 8949 times:

Not to mention the weight penalty of going to a hull/floats from a landing gear.

I'm afraid that the concept will not float in this day and age.  Wink



I thought I was doing good trying to avoid those airport hotels... and look at me now.
User currently offlinePelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2531 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 8919 times:

Quoting Starglider (Reply 2):
It was undoubtedly the most sophisticated flying boat ever constructed.

I think the Russians would disagree.
The Beriev Be-200ChS is a modern state of the art jet powered seaplane.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Fyodor Borisov - Russian AviaPhoto Team




View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Karl Drage



pelican


User currently offlineStarglider From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 678 posts, RR: 44
Reply 7, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 8888 times:

Quoting Pelican (Reply 6):
think the Russians would disagree.
The Beriev Be-200ChS is a modern state of the art jet powered seaplane.

You are correct. I should have said . . .the most sophisticated flying boat ever constructed until that moment.



Starglider


User currently offlineHaveBlue From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2098 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 8868 times:

Quoting Starglider (Reply 2):
And here is something that might interest you regarding development of a six-engined hull-type supersonic seaplane:

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/ca...asa.gov/19930090160_1993090160.pdf


Starglider

Those are some interesting pictures Starglider. For those who haven't looked yet just scroll all the way down, they show the water tests on a scaled model of the plane.



Here Here for Severe Clear!
User currently offlineOldAeroGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3476 posts, RR: 67
Reply 9, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 8835 times:

In addition to the drag problems of a boat hull mentioned above, salt water spray ingestion does not enhance engine life.


Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
User currently offlineScooter01 From Norway, joined Nov 2006, 1199 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 8815 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Blackbird (Thread starter):
(What Are The Obstacle)

Any submerged log at or just below the surface might ruin the day  

S

[Edited 2007-02-18 00:06:58]


"We all have a girl and her name is nostalgia" - Hemingway
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 8072 times:

So are gyroscopes used on modern seaplanes, could it be helpfull to improve handling on water?

User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 8066 times:

Like this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti_rolling_gyro

User currently offlineATCT From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 2272 posts, RR: 38
Reply 13, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 7996 times:



Quoting Scooter01 (Reply 10):
Any submerged log at or just below the surface might ruin the day

The thing that scares the bejeezus outta every seaplane/floatplane pilot!

Regarding Beriev, they also make a nifty little seaplane twin thats roughly the same cost as a new Baron, a larger aircraft, and is about as fast.

ATCT



"The way to get started is to quit talking and begin doing." - Walt Disney
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 60
Reply 14, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 7939 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR



Quoting FredT (Reply 5):
I'm afraid that the concept won't float in this day and age

Well, the key would be to take off against the current of a large, fast-moving river to simulate a conveyor belt.  duck 

2H4



Intentionally Left Blank
Top Of Page
Forum Index

Reply To This Topic Seaplanes And Flying Boats (What Are The Obstacle)
Username:
No username? Sign up now!
Password: 


Forgot Password? Be reminded.
Remember me on this computer (uses cookies)
  • Tech/Ops related posts only!
  • Not Tech/Ops related? Use the other forums
  • No adverts of any kind. This includes web pages.
  • No hostile language or criticizing of others.
  • Do not post copyright protected material.
  • Use relevant and describing topics.
  • Check if your post already been discussed.
  • Check your spelling!
  • DETAILED RULES
Add Images Add SmiliesPosting Help

Please check your spelling (press "Check Spelling" above)


Similar topics:More similar topics...
What Are The Approach Speeds For 737, 777 & 747? posted Tue Feb 21 2006 03:32:59 by AMSMAN
What Are The Different Vs (V1 V2) On Takeoffs? posted Wed Dec 28 2005 06:44:43 by ATCme
What Are The Requirements For 1.2.3.4 Stripes? posted Mon Jan 31 2005 23:04:39 by Imonti
What Are The Buttons On These Seats? posted Wed Aug 18 2004 22:51:19 by COEWR2587
Delays! What Are The Costs? posted Sat Apr 24 2004 10:15:56 by EK413
Alcohol And Flying - Where To Draw The Line? posted Wed Nov 12 2003 14:26:09 by Gordonsmall
What Are The DC8's Large Nose Air Intakes For? posted Tue Aug 5 2003 20:27:27 by IslandHopper
What Are The MD-80 Fins? posted Sat May 17 2003 04:20:48 by Upsmd11
What Are The Experts Opinions On This Stuff? posted Wed Mar 26 2003 22:31:46 by C172Akula
What Are The Rotation Speeds Of The TU-134 posted Mon Nov 18 2002 03:57:44 by Wardialer

Sponsor Message:
Printer friendly format