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Only "Straight In" For 747's At Toronto?  
User currently offlineMr Spaceman From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 2787 posts, RR: 9
Posted (12 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2214 times:

Hi guys. I live directly under the Left Hand "Procedure Turn" pattern from Left Downwind, to Final Approach for RWY's 24L and 24R at Toronto's Pearson International [YYZ], and have been enjoying the show that the Airliners put on while banking through their DME arch, right above my home, for 6 years now.

However, one thing that has me wondering, is why I have "never" seen a 747 banking above me in the pattern along with the rest of the troops?

For some reason, 747's only fly "Straight In" approaches from the North East, thus I never get to see "Fat Albert" up close, like I do with the other Heavies!

Why would this be?? After 6 years, not one 747!

Do 747's have a very wide turning radius which doesn't allow them to follow the other jets in the pattern? The L-1011's, B-777's, A-330's, A-340's DC-10's etc, seem to do just fine.

If the 747's need to manouver farther out before "levelling off" on the ILS, then at least I would know....but then I think of the turns that were needed for the approach to Hong Kong's Kai Tak International, and I just keep wondering....Why could the 747's follow the tight approach over there, but not the easier approach here?

Man, I just want to see a 747 in a cool bank overhead...just once.


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Chris









"Just a minute while I re-invent myself"
9 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4181 posts, RR: 37
Reply 1, posted (12 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2119 times:

It could be that they are coming in from europe and straight in is most convenient. In an IAP, if you have radar vectors to the final approach course, a procedure turn is not required. I can't give you a black and white answer though.


Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineMr Spaceman From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 2787 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (12 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2072 times:

Hi XFSUgimpLB41X. I appreciate your response. Well, I agree with you about how it would be more convenient if these 747's were ariving from the East [Europe]. However, obviously they are not ALL coming in from the East! Also I doubt that every 747 that's ariving to Toronto receives radar vectors "directly" to the Final Approach Fix.

Hopefully, someone who actually flys Heavies, might shed some light on this question.

After 6 years without one 747 playing "follow the leader" over my neighborhood, I'm sure there is a good reason, and I don't think it's Engine Noise!

Thanks,
Chris



"Just a minute while I re-invent myself"
User currently offlineJetCaptain From Canada, joined Dec 2000, 236 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (12 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2034 times:

Spaceman,

Virtually all the B747's that arrive into YYZ are coming from Europe. Traffic arriving from the northeast is routed over the SIMCOE VOR (YSO) then to the WASIE intersection then a 220 degree heading, this heading puts you right on the localizer for runway 23 (formally 24R) about 20 miles final, and a slight vector to the left does the same for runway 24R (formally 24L).

It has nothing do with the B747's turn performance. Just go watch them coming in when they are landing on the opposite direction runways (05 and 06L) and you'll see the B747's doing those turns to final just like the other types.

JC


User currently offlineMr Spaceman From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 2787 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (12 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2021 times:

Thank you JetCaptain for that info. I was not aware that most of the 747's were arriving from Europe. However if I NOW think about who is flying 747's into YYZ, then yes, that sure is true.

I must also say JetCaptain that you have me confused about the runway numbers and configuration at Toronto [YYZ].

Toronto's Pearson International Airport has had 3 runways [2 of them parallel], ever since I was a kid. The two parallel runways were always RWY 24L/06R and RWY 24R/06L. I was unaware that the runway numbering had changed.

According to you the runways are now marked 23/05 and 24R/06L. I understand that an airport will make RWY numbers different, even if they're "parallel", in order to reduce ATC radio comunication Confusion, however, how can you have a RWY 24"Right" when there is no 24"Left"?

Thanks,
Chris







"Just a minute while I re-invent myself"
User currently offlineJetCaptain From Canada, joined Dec 2000, 236 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (12 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2013 times:

Spaceman,

You're a little behind the times, YYZ has had 4 runways for quite some time now, there is also 33L-15R as well.

And they are half done a 5th runway, just to the left of what is now 24R (formally 24L), hence the name changes. Although it is a little confusing because the new runway is not finished yet.

http://www.gtaa.com/default.asp

Also check out Air Canada's schedule and look for their flight coming in from Hong Kong and Vancouver, it should be a B747-400. They usually come in over the Mans VOR (YMS) then head straight at the airport then turn to join a downwind before getting that base turn to final to either runway 23 or 24R.

JC






User currently offlineCYLW From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 427 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (12 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2002 times:

Air Canada flight 3008 (B744) arrives at YYZ at 2300 every night from YVR.


User currently offlineMr Spaceman From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 2787 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (12 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1973 times:

Hello JetCaptain. Well you are correct sir. I was absolutely unaware of the new runway being built to the left of 24R [formerly 24L]. That is why I was confused about there being a 24 RIGHT!

I was thinking that the only way the location of 24"R" would make sense was if they were going to build a 24L, which I didn't think was posible because of the lack of room between 24R and the hangers along Convair Dr. [the old Wardair and Worldways hanger location].

Obviously, once 24L is completed and active, it will be way to close to 24R for it to be part of a "triple" simutaneous approach system, with aircraft landing on 24L, 24R and 23 at the SAME time.

I was aware of the new rwy 33L / 15R. I didn't mention it though, because the approach to those runways doesn't bring aircraft any where near my home.

I fly small GA aircraft out of Buttonville and the City Centre Airport [sometimes Oshawa], never out of Pearson International. I'm only VFR rated, thus my only concern with YYZ is staying below their TRSA.

CYLW explained that a 747 arrives every night at 23:00 from Vancouver. Well, I guess I miss him, because I'm in bed by then.

Thank You for the info,
Chris






"Just a minute while I re-invent myself"
User currently offlineMr Spaceman From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 2787 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (12 years 10 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 1969 times:

Hi guys. This morning I saw a Piper Navajo climbing out of Toronto's Buttonville Airport [YKZ], and it had an unusual feature on it. Extending out of the back of the fuselage was a long pole around 6 feet long with a diameter like a pop can.

Obviously it was some type of antennae. I'm just wondering if it would be used for testing ground NAV aids or even an airport's ILS system.

I've seen a Canadair Challenger shooting many approaches over and over at Toronto Intl [YYZ], and suspected that it was testing the ILS systems, because it had the words "Ministry of Transportation" as well as "NAV CANADA" painted on each side. That aircraft was grey with low visibility markings, but it didn't have an antennae sticking out the back.

As far as I know, the Navajo's antennae could have been used to survey the ground for minerals or even search for bears!


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Photo © John Davies


Just wondering,
Chris





"Just a minute while I re-invent myself"
User currently offlineMr Spaceman From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 2787 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (12 years 10 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 1963 times:

Whooops! I guess I wasn't paying attention. Can anyone tell me how to fix my new post on the Navajo, so that it becomes a new topic?

Or should we just delete it?



"Just a minute while I re-invent myself"
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