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Pushback Query  
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3598 times:



Shouldn't the Ground Headset be connected at all times.
regds
MEL


Think of the brighter side!
42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3600 times:

Hand signals are commonly used at many airports when headsets are not available to ground personnel.
Yes, large jet aircraft as well.
Especially overseas.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 2, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3584 times:

Out here If Available.There should be constan communication between Cockpit,Ground & Pushback operator during Push.Also Engine start on Grd should have a person on the headset.
In the Video.The Guy on the Headset actually Disconnects the Grd headset prior to Pushback.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineLucky42 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3566 times:

Yeah that was kinda strange...to disconnect the headset. Yes you can use hand signals...but it would be easier to keep headset connected to tell the crew to set brakes etc... We always kept in touch with the crew during pushback.

User currently offlineZKNZA From New Zealand, joined Feb 2007, 69 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3556 times:

At NZ ,733 pushback procedure is to disconnect only after the plane has been pushed back, engines started with no probs, powerpush disconnected and pilot is happy.

User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 5, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3523 times:

Quoting ZKNZA (Reply 4):
At NZ ,733 pushback procedure is to disconnect only after the plane has been pushed back, engines started with no probs, powerpush disconnected and pilot is happy

Given the option available I found it strange that Engines were started during pushback with no one connected to the Flight deck.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineWestJetForLife From Canada, joined Jun 2005, 814 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3410 times:

Mel, I once did a ramp tour with my Air Cadet corps at YYC. We got to see a 737-700 get pushed off out of D-concourse here.

The GRD headset was removed prior to pushback, since they needed to get that airplane off ASAP.

The most probable reason for disconnecting the GRD mike was time constraints for getting the plane off as close to departure as possible. WS ground crews do that sometimes so that way they can get the plane on the taxiway as soon as possible.

Thanks, and if any WS ground crews wish to correct or change anything, please do so.
Nik



I need a drink.
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 7, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3387 times:

Quoting WestJetForLife (Reply 6):
The most probable reason for disconnecting the GRD mike was time constraints for getting the plane off as close to departure as possible

That could be the reason.But Delays should never compromise on Safety.During the Time of Headset Disconnection to completion of Engine Start,there could be an urgent need to communicate verbally.

regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineAirTran737 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3705 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3369 times:
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Quoting WestJetForLife (Reply 6):
The most probable reason for disconnecting the GRD mike was time constraints for getting the plane off as close to departure as possible. WS ground crews do that sometimes so that way they can get the plane on the taxiway as soon as possible.

It literally takes two seconds to pull the headset and close the panel. Once the wheels roll and the ACARS kick in time really isn't an issue anymore. The only time where it would be an issue is if you were heading to an airport that has been ATC slotted due to weather issues and you only had a few minutes to make your slot.

Quoting HAWK21M (Thread starter):
Shouldn't the Ground Headset be connected at all times.

Using hand signals is very common, the tug driver has to make sure that he has constant visual contact with the captain. I can't count how many pushbacks I have done at FL without a headset. Our procedure requires that the pushback driver talks face to face with the captain prior to departure. During that face to face we discuss if there are any turns, hazards ect. during the push. Most of the time it is a much simpler conversation.

Me: "Hey Cap, our headset is inop, and special requests?"
Cap: "Nope, we'll use standard hand signals on the way out>"
ME: "Sounds good, blink the light if there's a problem, I'll set the brake and come talk to you."
Cap: "Great, thanks for coming up and talking to us, most people don't do it. Try not to hit anything on the way out."
Me: "I can try, but I won't guarantee anything. You're clear to spin them as soon as we roll. Later guys"

Simple as that. He gives me a double fisted "brakes released" and mimic him, and spin my fingers to let him know he can light the burners. Safe, simple and effective.



Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
User currently offlineExPanAmer From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 36 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3336 times:

When I worked at the Worldport, we normally used headsets.Of course, there were times one was not available, there were times the cords would be disconnected during the pushback due to too much slack and getting caught in something(guess!).The circumstance I remember most for not using a headset was when there was a possibility of lightning strikes. The headset wearer would be the shortest, least resistance path to ground!

User currently offlineG4LASRamper From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 170 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3303 times:

We normally use headsets for the push, but can and do revert to hand signals if a headset doesn't work or isn't available. Our normal push is to start #2 during the push, then start #1 while disconnecting the towbar after the push is completed and the brakes are set (our pushbacks can't push against the idle thrust of two engines running). If a headset is being used we stay connected as long as the captain wants. In any case we watch both engines during start. I've been told we will see things like a fire well before there is a cockpit indication.


"A pig that doesn't fly is just a pig." - Porco Rosso
User currently offlineCopter808 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1105 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 3275 times:

Nobody seems to have mentioned he may have disconnected early because of the short cord. If he stumbles or otherwise fails to keep up with the pushback speed, he gets squished! My company requires headsets to be plugged in during push, but we frequently unplugged when we had a driver who tended to push fast.

User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 4022 posts, RR: 33
Reply 12, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3262 times:

Quoting Copter808 (Reply 11):
Nobody seems to have mentioned he may have disconnected early because of the short cord

I agree. That headset is dangerous and should not be on a pushback.
I am waiting for a big accident with a headset cord getting wrapped around a nosewheel. Maybe then we can introduce cordless headsets.
When I do pushbacks, I always try and sit in the tractor. I feel it is dangerous to have to keep track of the nosewheels, towbar, tractor and headset lead, and look where you are going.
SAS have a system where they have a one man pushback. The driver has the headset, the lead is built into the towbar, and he is on his own. Good idea. I have watched them in CPH and OSL and it works well. (We don't need wingwalkers in Europe as the stands are big enough!


User currently offlineG4LASRamper From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 170 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3248 times:

With us, the push driver wears the headset too. We require two wing walkers though - the MD-83 sits so low to the ground that the driver doesn't have a good view around the aircraft. I envy those that get to push "tall" aircraft - they can easily see where they're going.


"A pig that doesn't fly is just a pig." - Porco Rosso
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 14, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3184 times:

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 8):
Using hand signals is very common

True.But when the Headset option is available.It should be used.

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 8):
I'll set the brake and come talk to you."

Any abnormal situation should be discussed between Crew & Mx before commencing.It helps.

Quoting G4LASRamper (Reply 10):
our pushbacks can't push against the idle thrust of two engines running

What HP Pushback truck ae you using.

regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineTERRA From Iraq, joined Aug 1999, 207 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3127 times:

Odd

The headset does not cause a time delay and should always be used if available. However that lead is definitely too short to be used.

I was more worried to see that the guys were doing horseplay in the cab, what's all that about? I'm concerned that you see the passenger put his foot on the throttle.......................

I might send this video to my buddies at Globe Ground.


User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3107 times:

Give me hand signals any day of the week.

Example.
JED, apron 6.
Ready to start and pushback.
Ground says cleared for start and push.
I turn on the rotating beacon, and attempt to communicate with the ground personnel.

No reply.
Try again.
This time he answers and I say...'brakes off, cleared for pushback, turning engine two.
Nothing from the ground personnel.
Out to lunch perhaps?
So, hand signals are used, and all goes smoothly.

Case closed.


User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 4022 posts, RR: 33
Reply 17, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3090 times:

Yes hand signals are great until it all goes wrong.
What is the hand signal for.. The shear pins just broke, please put the brakes on before you hit the tug...?
Or, there are flames shooting out of engine 2..

I am sure someone will find an ICAO hand signal for these, but will the guy on the ramp remember them? I work on the ramp every day and I don't know.

The problem with pushbacks and start ups is that they so rarely go wrong that we forget what to do.


User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3084 times:

In forty years+ of flying, TriStar Steve, hand signals have NEVER failed.

No complaints from this end...absolutely.

Now some might disagree..that's OK too.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 19, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3058 times:

Quoting 411A (Reply 16):
This time he answers and I say...'brakes off, cleared for pushback, turning engine two.
Nothing from the ground personnel.
Out to lunch perhaps?
So, hand signals are used, and all goes smoothly.

With no response How would you know if #2 was clear.Did you get a visual OK.

Quoting 411A (Reply 18):
In forty years+ of flying, TriStar Steve, hand signals have NEVER failed.

Hand Signals are reliable but cover only certain commands not all abnormalaties.Also there is always some T/D involved.If Audio is available it should be priority.

regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3045 times:

Yes Hawk, hand signals received OK for starting number two.
Besides, if someone IS in the way, they will find out soon enough.
Then there are the folks on the ground headset that constantly want the blocks off time, nearly to the exclusion of everything else.

If they want to know, they should look at their wristwatch.

Now, having said this, the very best ground communications I've had are in Japan.
Very precise and courteous.
Many could learn from these folks about how to do pushback communications properly.


User currently offlineNonfirm From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 434 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3018 times:

We require our ground staff to wear the headset at all times.If the headset is inop the A/C will wait until a serviceable headset is brought to the A/C.Also the alley way where the push occures is a tail out all the time and the ramp control is know for altering push instructions not to mention the temporary wall that is in place on the ramp around the construction.It makes for a tight condition with wings close to the wall.Our pilot's also perfer the communication with the tug crew.  airplane 

User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 22, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2983 times:

Quoting 411A (Reply 20):
Now, having said this, the very best ground communications I've had are in Japan.
Very precise and courteous.
Many could learn from these folks about how to do pushback communications properly

Any Examples.

Out here Headset is Mandatory if provision exists.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineJayDub From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2948 times:

Hand signals have never failed me. As AirTran737 said...as long as the signal man has a face to face with the captain and confirm that they both know the signals, handsignals work everytime.

To be quite honest...headset communications were primarily discussing the attractiveness of the F/A's and where to get a cold beer when they got back to Dallas.

We did require a headset for "Advanced Manuevers"...such as pushing out less than one minute prior to Delta and deliberately turning tail north instead of south in order to block them in the gate and cause them to take a D-Zero hit....or pushing out 30 seconds AFTER Delta and putting our tail in their nose just to piss them off a little by making them wait to taxi. A DL 767 Captain once gave us the finger for that.

(The more pushback stories I tell on A.net...the more I realized we were cocky jerks out there. Yet we were so good at it. ) Big grin


User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (7 years 7 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2914 times:

Yes, Hawk, I can give you an example.
At every airport I been in Japan, the use of a standard format is mandated, for ground communications.
No idle chit-chat, just down to business.
The reason for this, is the sometimes limited command of the English language that a few ground personnel might have.
Say, for example, a Japanese ground crew member communicating with a Bangladeshi Captain, in a language that is not especially native to either.
So, very precise and direct terms are used, in a standard format, that both understand.
It works like a charm, and indded the best ground communications I have experienced have been in FUK/NRT etc.
Second best?
ZRH/AMS/FRA.

LHR?
A distant third, oddly enough.


25 Post contains images JayDub : Upon finally watching the video (it was blocked from viewing at work)....there was absolutely NOTHING wrong with the way this ground crew conducted th
26 HAWK21M : No one is Disputing that Visual signals are not used.But the Debate is IF Audio communication is present should it be negated.For a Visual Emergency
27 411A : Folks that have their entire aviation experience in only one company (or country) usually do not appreciate the many different ways that operations ar
28 TERRA : It also depends on aircraft type, hand signals on a commuter jet can be practical where as it's not for a B747. However again if a headset if availabl
29 Post contains images HAWK21M : Agreed.The debate was on which was preffered given a choice. Exactly. regds MEL
30 Copter808 : When resorting to hand signals, I always told the captain, "If you see me running, you might want to shut down and evacuate!" If given a choice, The
31 411A : Hmmm, it is clear that many armchair experts here have never fully understood the proper use of hand signals, nor their application or perhaps indeed
32 Copter808 : Agreed 411A, and I was going to mention that sometimes in situations where different languages are an issue hand signals might work well--but I didn't
33 TERRA : Sadly the PIC is not always gazing out the window during pushback to see the guy on the ground waving his arms in the air no matter what the signal mi
34 Steelyman : In small jet aircrafts (like 737) hand signals are ok on both start-up procedures and push-back procedures. I think this is more how you like communic
35 Post contains images Aviopic : Although I fully agree with you I have to admit that there are "language" difficulties with hand signals as well. An example: Some 2 years ago we rec
36 HAWK21M : Talking about the Signal chart.What about the stop sign at Night.How is it out there.Do you use the Cross with the Marshalling torches or the wave cro
37 SB : My experience is that the (usually frantic) wave crossing is more of an emergency stop than the regular slow-down-to-a-stop which is signaled by bring
38 Post contains images Aviopic : Personally I always use the X signal for stop, light, dark, torch or no torch as I think the Brake signal is a bit vague and everybody understand the
39 HAWK21M : With due course most Airports upgrading to the Automatic Parking systems,so the frequency of Marshalling will def drop. regds MEL
40 Copter808 : Been there, done that! A lot like a comedy at times. Another point. If something goes wrong, how do you answer the question; "Might it have not occur
41 Copter808 : the end got left off... If all else fails, make your hasty exit from the area very visible and maybe they will get the idea!
42 Post contains images HAWK21M : Might not work when you have Powerplants operating on Large Aircraft regds MEL
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