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Jets In Ice  
User currently offlineSansVGs From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 190 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3430 times:

Does anyone know if there has ever been an accident in a jet due to icing? I am not talking about contamination accidents on take-off (or shortly after), but rather while actually in flight. Thanks.


Winglets on a Falcon are "over-painting" a great work of art.
34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17188 posts, RR: 66
Reply 1, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3399 times:

Interesting question. I think you will find that these are rather rare since at modern cruising altitudes icing is not very likely. The air is too cold to hold any significant moisture.


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineWrenchBender From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 1779 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3389 times:

The 1994 American Eagle ATR 72 (Turbo-Prop) was directly attributable to inflight icing accumulation.
Descent thru icing conditions is more likely to cause accumulation than at cruising at altitude.

WrenchBender



Silly Pilot, Tricks are for kids.......
User currently offlineSansVGs From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 190 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3365 times:

Let me be more precise in my question: For only Jets in any phase of flight. But not including take off.

Here is why. I have done google searches, and found nothing, but a "maybe" involving a CL 600 on a go-around in Canada. Also two C560's had split-boot bridging issues ten or so years ago. I don't wish to jinx myself, but most jets seem to be immune from ice accidents...assuming they take off "clean."

Every plane picks up ice in a different way. And changing altitude by 4000 feet can usually get one out of the ice. The higher flight levels usually don't provide icing. But jets have to get up and down agian.


Thanks again if anyone can find some info.



Winglets on a Falcon are "over-painting" a great work of art.
User currently offlineATCT From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 2350 posts, RR: 37
Reply 4, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3361 times:

Quoting SansVGs (Reply 3):
I don't wish to jinx myself, but most jets seem to be immune from ice accidents...

I think you mean jets with De-Icing and Anti-Ice systems.

I know the Dornier 328 Jet has Boots, while most "jet" aircraft are equipped with hot wings.

Anywho I cant think of any ice related accidents (probably some incidents out there) that are directly attributed to icing on board a jet aircraft while in cruise.

ATCT


Just found this...sorta interesting...
http://www.landings.com/evird.acgi$p...ar5-2007/Mn-48-ice-chunk-down.html

[Edited 2007-03-14 18:55:16]


"The way to get started is to quit talking and begin doing." - Walt Disney
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6428 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3349 times:

Quoting ATCT (Reply 4):
I know the Dornier 328 Jet has Boots, while most "jet" aircraft are equipped with hot wings.

Transport category, perhaps. I can think of many bizjets I have re-fueled that were equipped with de-icing boots...



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineAirfoilsguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3300 times:

727s had a problem where a leaky lav caused ice to build up and get sucked in to the engines casueing engine failure.

User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17188 posts, RR: 66
Reply 7, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3296 times:

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 6):
727s had a problem where a leaky lav caused ice to build up and get sucked in to the engines casueing engine failure.

Sometimes pretty dramatic failure  Wink


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"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently onlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4722 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3281 times:

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 5):
Quoting ATCT (Reply 4):
I know the Dornier 328 Jet has Boots, while most "jet" aircraft are equipped with hot wings.

Transport category, perhaps. I can think of many bizjets I have re-fueled that were equipped with de-icing boots...

Actually the Do 328 is used by airlines, additionally, there's the corporate / VIP version.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6428 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3268 times:

Quoting A342 (Reply 8):
Actually the Do 328 is used by airlines, additionally, there's the corporate / VIP version.

That probably has more to do with the fact that the Do 328 Jet was based on the Do 328 turboprop...  Wink They probably still got their FIKI (flight into known icing) certification nonetheless.



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineFutureualpilot From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2608 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3183 times:

Air Florida 92(flight no. ?) crashed due to ice I believe.


Life is better when you surf.
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31712 posts, RR: 56
Reply 11, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3138 times:

http://aviation-safety.net/database/dblist.php?Event=WXI
The Database has Icing causes listed.

regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17188 posts, RR: 66
Reply 12, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3105 times:

Quoting Futureualpilot (Reply 10):
Air Florida 92(flight no. ?) crashed due to ice I believe.

That was during take-off.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineFredT From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2002, 2185 posts, RR: 26
Reply 13, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3087 times:

There was a case where a jet (bizjet) scouting for icing conditions for icing certification trials of a prototype helicopter ended up crashing (gear up in field, no serious injuries IIRC) due to ice. The PIC was late in activating the anti-icing, so upper surface ice had formed. The anti-icing caused the ice to break loose and end up in the engines.

Rgds,
/Fred



I thought I was doing good trying to avoid those airport hotels... and look at me now.
User currently offlineSansVGs From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 190 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3066 times:

Hawk21M, Thanks for the list. Interesting reading. The only two on the list that came close to the criteria were the Sabreliner in PIT (They forgot the ENG ANTI-ICE) and the forgotten pitot heat in the 737-400.

FredT, Wow--what a story. One would think while out scouting for icing conditions that "ice" would be on the brain, and at least have the "ENG Anti-ICE" on.

[Edited 2007-03-15 15:08:52]


Winglets on a Falcon are "over-painting" a great work of art.
User currently onlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4722 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3010 times:

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 9):
That probably has more to do with the fact that the Do 328 Jet was based on the Do 328 turboprop...  wink  They probably still got their FIKI (flight into known icing) certification nonetheless.

I don't understand why they shouldn't have got it ?



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6428 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2998 times:

Quoting A342 (Reply 15):
I don't understand why they shouldn't have got it ?

Well, the reason most transport category jets use hot wings instead of boots is because hot wings offer vastly superior ice protection...hot wings cannot be bridged  Smile



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently onlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4722 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2923 times:

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 16):
hot wings cannot be bridged

What does "bridged" mean in this context ?



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineTedTAce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2915 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 12):
That was during take-off.

It's still ice.


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17188 posts, RR: 66
Reply 19, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2903 times:

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 18):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 12):
That was during take-off.

It's still ice.

Yes it is, but if you recall, the thread starter said:

Quoting SansVGs (Reply 3):
Let me be more precise in my question: For only Jets in any phase of flight. But not including take off.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineTedTAce From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 2900 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 19):
But not including take off.

Fair enough.


User currently offlineFredT From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2002, 2185 posts, RR: 26
Reply 21, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 2899 times:

Quoting A342 (Reply 17):
What does "bridged" mean in this context ?

It was previously taught to let ice form for a few minutes prior to activating the pneumatic boots. The philosophy was that if the layer of ice was too thin, it would bulge with the inflation of the boots rather than crack and break away, and thus form an ice bridge under which the boots could inflate and deflate without any further effect on the icing.

The philosophy these days, at least on the aircraft I'm around, seems to be to turn it all on at the first suspicion of icing and leave it on until well clear.

Rgds,
/Fred



I thought I was doing good trying to avoid those airport hotels... and look at me now.
User currently onlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4722 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2826 times:

Quoting FredT (Reply 21):
It was previously taught to let ice form for a few minutes prior to activating the pneumatic boots. The philosophy was that if the layer of ice was too thin, it would bulge with the inflation of the boots rather than crack and break away, and thus form an ice bridge under which the boots could inflate and deflate without any further effect on the icing.

Ok, thanks.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineFutureatp From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 222 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 9 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2622 times:

I vaugely remember a story that fits. I remember reading about a 727 that had its pitot static-system ice up in flight and (no pun intended) froze the airspeed indicator at a speed higher than desired. The crew ended up stalling the aircraft cause they did not realize that the pitot-static heat(unable to recall proper terminology) failed or simply forgot to activate it.

That is all i can remember. Im sure it happend in the US and may not have been a passenger flight or even a pt 121 or 135 flight. Im too lazy to dig up my aviation disaster books out of storage Smile


User currently offlineSansVGs From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 190 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2493 times:

i have heard both sides of the bridging argument. I think some people just like to let ice build up on booted planes so they can watch it blow off when they activate the system.


Winglets on a Falcon are "over-painting" a great work of art.
25 OPNLguy : That was a NWA 727 on Dec 1, 1974, the same day that TWA 514 (also a 727) went down on approach into IAD. The NWA flight was a positioning ferry rela
26 EMBQA : There was a Comair E120 around the same time frame that went down due to in-flight icing as well.
27 FredT : Was some renewed fuzz about a Citation which stalled in from 1500' on approach due to icing on Feb 16th 2005 just now. Rgds, /Fred
28 Post contains images Starlionblue : Well. This was sort of take-off. Very close at least. Scary day as I recall. Typical Swedish disaster though. No deaths. Compare to the Gripen crash
29 SansVGs : Odin must have been the original aviation god.
30 Starglider : Unfortunately Odin remains a myth, certainly as the original aviation god. I remember one ice related crash vividly which does not fit in that catego
31 Post contains images KELPkid : I'm home sick from work today with a bad cold (thanks, wifey for sharing it ). I was reading my new Flying magazine which came last weekend, and pg.
32 Starglider : Aircraft in question was actually a Fokker 70 (F28 Mk0070) operated by Austrian Airlines, approaching Munich in icing conditions. Due to a prolonged
33 SansVGs : Interesting. I complain about my current plane requiring full air brake to stay slow in icing. This is because the auto-throttles will not retard thr
34 Lemurs : Does anyone have any diagrams/pictures handy of de-icing boots in action or how they're installed/used? The whole idea of de-icing and airplane with m
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