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New Pilot Has Silly Questions About Taxi/takeoff  
User currently offlineJETBLUEATASW From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 56 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5591 times:

I appreciate you all in advance for answering my questions I have. I intend to be a Airline Transport Pilot one day, but for now im starting off with my private pilot's license. I took off in a Cessna172R from MacArthur Airport runway 33L via Whisky taxiway. I was number 2 for Depature, following a Southwest 737-800. A question about Regulation, im sure the FAA requires this, or maybe its the USDOT. Why is it that pilots are required to stop at the beginning of the runway usually known as the "piano keys"?


"DO ME A FAVOR WOULD YA, THE NEXT TIME U LAND A PLANE ON MY STRIP, BONE UP ON YOUR MORSE CODE"-Tom Berenger
37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRalgha From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 1614 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5587 times:

They're not.

A "standard" takeoff in a turbine aircraft is a static one, which means you stop, run up the power to whatever the takeoff power setting is, then release the brakes and roll. The other type is a rolling takeoff, which is anything other than what I just described for a static takeoff. Anything from holding the brakes until power is 99% set (instead of 100%), to not even slowing down after the turn onto the runway.

Whether one must do a static takeoff or not is determined by the performance data for the particular runway in use.



09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
User currently offlineMDorBust From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5554 times:

Quoting JETBLUEATASW (Thread starter):
Why is it that pilots are required to stop at the beginning of the runway usually known as the "piano keys"?

Required, not so much.

But, starting from the threshold does provide you with the most runway to use on takeoff. A good idea in case you have to reject. Runway behind you and air above you...

Smaller aircraft often make intersection departures. I don't think I've seen an RJ at ORD ever use the full runway.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21691 posts, RR: 55
Reply 3, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5530 times:

Quoting JETBLUEATASW (Thread starter):
I was number 2 for Depature, following a Southwest 737-800.

This is why. It's not a regulatory requirement, but by starting from the very end of the runway, you're minimizing the length of runway that it takes you to get into the air, and thus placing yourself farther from the departure path of the 737. This minimizes your chance of coming into contact with its wake tubulence, which will really ruin your day at low altitude.

When departing after a big plane, I always use the most runway available. When going into position and hold after a big plane has landed, I'll trundle slowly down the runway while it clears so that by the time I get my takeoff clearance, I'm about 500 feet down the runway, and thus 500 feet closer to the point where it touched down, and stopped generating its wake.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5463 times:

The 'standard' takeoff is most definitely NOT a static one in a turbine powered airplane.

Having flown turbine powered airplanes for over thirty five years (both turbopropeller, turbojet and turbofan powered varieties)
I have only two or three times done a static full power engine run prior to brakes release.

Type, B707-320, JT4A powered.

ALL the rest have been rolling takeoffs.


User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13649 posts, RR: 62
Reply 5, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5440 times:
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Quoting JETBLUEATASW (Thread starter):
I was number 2 for Depature, following a Southwest 737-800

And not to nit-pick, but WN doesn't have 738s in the fleet. It was probably a 73G you were following.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineRalgha From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 1614 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5357 times:

Quoting 411A (Reply 4):
The 'standard' takeoff is most definitely NOT a static one in a turbine powered airplane.

Yes it is. "Standard" has absolutely nothing to do with "usual". Performance data is calculated based on a static takeoff, and then adjusted for rolling takeoffs.



09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
User currently offlineBio15 From Colombia, joined Mar 2001, 1089 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5356 times:

Hi Paul.

Pilots are not required to stop at the piano keys, but they are required to comply with Air Traffic Control. ATC may issue a "Taxi into position and hold" instruction which means you may line up with the runway but you are not cleared to takeoff. The controller doesn't specify where to hold short, if at the piano keys or farther, and it is not his/her concern at all as long as you comply with the hold-short instruction.

This instruction expedites takeoff procedures. If you're at the taxiway and a plane is landing or taking off, ATC will let you taxi into takeoff position after the aircraft has passed, so when it has vacated the active runway you can be ready for immediate takeoff.

The piano keys are a visual indication of the runway width, but not a hold short signal or such. It is common to see General Aviation pilots taxiing into the aft-most position of the runway to get the most usable runway length for the takeoff, and this spot is coincidentially above the piano keys on runways with no displaced threshold.


regards
Alfredo


User currently offlineThirtyEcho From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 1654 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5324 times:

There are several ATC instructions for takeoff and "position and hold" is NOT one of them; what that means is that you shoud move out onto the runway, in takeoff position, and stop right there.

"Cleared for takeoff" means just that, so do it.

"Take it out rolling" is, I believe, unofficial clearance slang that means that you should move from the taxiway to the runway to takeoff without stopping for anything.

"Expedite" means that you should haul ass; there is a B-52 on short final that is gonna squash you like a bug unless you get outta there. I interpret "take it out rolling" to be the same thing and I haven't been almost hit by a B-52 since 1961.

Then, again, that was on short final and is another story. If you beg me, I'll tell you.


User currently offlineTheGreatChecko From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1130 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5303 times:

Quoting Bio15 (Reply 7):
but they are required to comply with Air Traffic Control.

Always keep in mind that the pilot in command is the final authority regarding safety and the operation of the aircraft. While ATC might think you are required to do what they say, the pilot isn't actually required to follow their clearances. (CFR 91.3)

HOWEVER, you must have a really good reason that has to do with the immediate safety of your aircraft and/or passengers, ie engine is on fire or there is a plane on short final to the runway you've just been cleared onto, because diregarding a clearance is very serious and can cause some bad things to happen.

Checko



"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5284 times:

Quoting Ralgha (Reply 6):
Quoting 411A (Reply 4):
The 'standard' takeoff is most definitely NOT a static one in a turbine powered airplane.

Yes it is. "Standard" has absolutely nothing to do with "usual". Performance data is calculated based on a static takeoff, and then adjusted for rolling takeoffs.

At my airline, all of our performance is based on a "rolling" takeoff since that's the most conservative method.


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17068 posts, RR: 66
Reply 11, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5179 times:

Quoting ThirtyEcho (Reply 8):
"Expedite" means that you should haul ass; there is a B-52 on short final that is gonna squash you like a bug unless you get outta there. I interpret "take it out rolling" to be the same thing and I haven't been almost hit by a B-52 since 1961.

Then, again, that was on short final and is another story. If you beg me, I'll tell you.

Ok I'll beg.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineVTBDflyer From Thailand, joined Aug 2006, 379 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5161 times:

Quoting ThirtyEcho (Reply 8):
"Expedite" means that you should haul ass; there is a B-52 on short final that is gonna squash you like a bug unless you get outta there. I interpret "take it out rolling" to be the same thing and I haven't been almost hit by a B-52 since 1961.

Then, again, that was on short final and is another story. If you beg me, I'll tell you.

I'm interested now, I think I'm willing to beg...  Smile

VTBDflyer



Fly Thai
User currently offlineLeebird From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 17 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5135 times:

Quoting ThirtyEcho (Reply 8):
"Expedite" means that you should haul ass; there is a B-52 on short final that is gonna squash you like a bug unless you get outta there. I interpret "take it out rolling" to be the same thing and I haven't been almost hit by a B-52 since 1961.

Then, again, that was on short final and is another story. If you beg me, I'll tell you.

I'll beg, too. I always enjoy hearing stories about aviation.


User currently offlineRalgha From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 1614 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5082 times:

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 10):
At my airline, all of our performance is based on a "rolling" takeoff since that's the most conservative method.

Is it calculated from scratch for that, or is that just how it's presented to the pilots?



09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5045 times:

Same here, Phil, the calculations for takeoff data are using a rolling takeoff procedure at my airline...in fact every airline I have worked at in the last thirty years.
If fact, some airplanes, at certain weights (usually lower) REQUIRE a rolling takeoff procedure to be used.

Static full power runs are usually not used, except under very specific circumstances, and at most airlines, are certainly NOT standard procedure.

Wait. I could be wrong. Maybe I should tell my Chief Pilot?
No, that won't work...I AM the Chief Pilot.


User currently onlineN243NW From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1638 posts, RR: 20
Reply 16, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5033 times:

So I assume that if a pilot feels that the aircraft will need the entire runway to take off, he/she can reject an intersection departure clearance, not unlike a LAHSO clearance?

-N243NW Big grin



B-52s don't take off. They scare the ground away.
User currently onlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 6073 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5016 times:

Quoting Ralgha (Reply 1):
A "standard" takeoff in a turbine aircraft is a static one, which means you stop, run up the power to whatever the takeoff power setting is, then release the brakes and roll.



Quoting 411A (Reply 4):
The 'standard' takeoff is most definitely NOT a static one in a turbine powered airplane.



Quoting Ralgha (Reply 6):
Yes it is. "Standard" has absolutely nothing to do with "usual".



Quoting Ralgha (Reply 14):
Is it calculated from scratch for that, or is that just how it's presented to the pilots?



Quoting 411A (Reply 15):
If fact, some airplanes, at certain weights (usually lower) REQUIRE a rolling takeoff procedure to be used.

Static full power runs are usually not used, except under very specific circumstances, and at most airlines, are certainly NOT standard procedure.

Gentlemen, if I may interject.

The performance provided to pilots, and how it is presented, is based solely on how conservative the airline asks the performance provider to be, and what procedures the airline decides best fits them. There is no "standard" anything, except internally based on how a given airline decides to have it calculated and presented.



Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21691 posts, RR: 55
Reply 18, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 4983 times:

Quoting N243NW (Reply 16):
So I assume that if a pilot feels that the aircraft will need the entire runway to take off, he/she can reject an intersection departure clearance, not unlike a LAHSO clearance?

Yes, though they may be delayed so that their request can be fulfilled.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineN231YE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 4971 times:

Just to add, depending on the condition of the takeoff, as well as how procedures are based, can dictate how you perform your takeoff.

Example: Short Field Takeoff: C172R

The scale/graphs for Short Field takeoffs are calculated with the engine at full power, therefore, one must hold onto the brakes before reaching max RPM...when reached, one can let go and proceed with the rest of the procedures

Quoting 411A (Reply 15):
Wait. I could be wrong. Maybe I should tell my Chief Pilot?
No, that won't work...I AM the Chief Pilot.

What airline do you fly for/what aircraft do you fly?


User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4935 times:

Lockheed L1011, N231YE, with several in the fleet, middle east based.
As was pointed out, many airlines have specific runway charts, and indeed some airplanes in their AFM specify a rolling takeoff procedure, under most circumstances.
This is not to say that if a static full power engine run is necessary, this cannot be used, just that, with large jet aircraft, it is very unusual, and has been for quite a long time.
In the earlier days of jet transport operations, where straight-pipe non-fan engines were the norm, static full power engine runs prior to brakes release were often used, due to the rather slow spool-up times these engines had, especially where the runway length was limiting, considering the takeoff weight of the airplane.
These airplanes have long since been retired, so the necessity of full power engine runs has diminished greatly.
In addition, most airplanes now utilize reduced/flex thrust, so if more thrust is needed, the next higher derate is generally used.
Further, sometimes using full thrust when the runway surface is wet/icy, and/or a significant crosswind is present, rusults in the airplane sliding sideways.
This, as you can imagine, is NOT good.

[Edited 2007-03-21 23:28:36]

User currently offlineBio15 From Colombia, joined Mar 2001, 1089 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4904 times:

Quoting ThirtyEcho (Reply 8):
There are several ATC instructions for takeoff and "position and hold" is NOT one of them; what that means is that you shoud move out onto the runway, in takeoff position, and stop right there.

"Cleared for takeoff" means just that, so do it.

"Take it out rolling" is, I believe, unofficial clearance slang that means that you should move from the taxiway to the runway to takeoff without stopping for anything.

"Expedite" means that you should haul ass;

Was this refering to my post?


User currently offlineLONGisland89 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 738 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4899 times:

JETBLUEATASW, the reason why you saw what you saw is because 33L at KISP is so short in terms for use for a 737 (around 5,000 feet i recall). It especially becomes interesting on hot summer days when they eat up just about all of the rwy.

User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4855 times:

Quoting N243NW (Reply 16):
So I assume that if a pilot feels that the aircraft will need the entire runway to take off, he/she can reject an intersection departure clearance, not unlike a LAHSO clearance?

Yes, and he can reject a LAHSO clearance also!


User currently offlineSansVGs From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 190 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4841 times:

Quoting JETBLUEATASW (Thread starter):
I was number 2 for Depature, following a Southwest 737-800. A question about Regulation, im sure the FAA requires this, or maybe its the USDOT. Why is it that pilots are required to stop at the beginning of the runway usually known as the "piano keys"?

Dude, Congrats on the path you have chosen. Don't get in a hurry and forget to have fun flying along the way.

When a controller clears you to take-off (or land) that is "your runway.' If you need to do a static do it. If you have room to roll--roll it. Either way is fine. Don't get "goated" into moving faster than you feel comfortable with--just because some "heavy" is on final. You can always tell ATC you need a minute and hold short. (I am speaking from my own "learning experiences")

As for the required static take-off discussion here. I think the FAR part 25 original aircraft certification numbers "May" require static take-offs. Individual certified airline procedures / numbers, and common sense about jerking the pax make rolling take-offs more the norm.



Winglets on a Falcon are "over-painting" a great work of art.
25 Aviator1990 : I'm not sure what you mean but I believe that HOLD SHORT is also the same thing, where you stop at the dashed line before the runway until you get cle
26 Post contains images Bio15 : From your post I understand that it should be OK to taxi into position and then hold a minute if you request to do so because you require time to get
27 2H4 : I can think of several jets that perform static full power engine runs prior to virtually every takeoff as standard operating procedure. Can anyone g
28 CosmicCruiser : any off a carrier. Only time we see a Static T/O is wind related. There's a max x-wind for rolling t/o but it's definately the norm.
29 Post contains images 2H4 :
30 ThirtyEcho : Since you all begged so politely: This happened in 1961; a time when the Strategic Air Command regularly flew low level, high speed, B-62 missions alo
31 Speedracer1407 : Question about the scope of the terms "rolling" and "static" takeoff: Is a rolling takeoff any takeoff in which the engines are not spooled up to full
32 Post contains images VTBDflyer : Now thats my type of story , and a close encounter... any chance she made some good cookies? Got'a love them old B-52s VTBDflyer
33 SansVGs : Are you asking if holding short is the same thing as a static take-off? It is not. Static takeoffs occur from a stopped position on the runway facing
34 Pope : Why start from the piano keys? Simple, because amount of runway behind you is a meaningless figure. The same goes for amount of fuel consumed. You wan
35 Pilotaydin : no....infact Boeing has documents on this.....N1 is run up to about 40% then the brakes are released....as Boeing has put it in one of their circular
36 Onetogo : How about icing conditions. Engines must be run above xx% N1 for xx number of seconds. 411A, you do any GA flying out of Scottsdizzle?
37 411A : If engine icing is anticipated, the engines are accelerated to 60% N1 for one minute prior to brakes release, with engine anti-ice selected ON, with t
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