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Caravelle Tail Design Question  
User currently offlineMerlinIIIB From Norway, joined Aug 2005, 121 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3099 times:

The SUD SE-210 Caravelle represents a fine childhood memory to me. Yesterday browsed through the photo database of the different models, VI-N, III, 10B3, 11R and 12. I then noticed that on some photos, the tail surface were extended forward along the fuselage roof. The strange part is that the photo database show 10B3's with and without this extension. So my questions are:

1. Why do some models have the "ridge" extension forward of the tail?
2. What are the main differences between the Caravelle models? (links please)
3. Are there any Caravelles flying today?

19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17039 posts, RR: 66
Reply 1, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3098 times:

Quoting MerlinIIIB (Thread starter):
3. Are there any Caravelles flying today?

As far as I know, the last one was flying with Gabon Express but retired (crashed?) only a few years ago.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineDH106 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 626 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3097 times:

Additionally, notice that later versions of the Caravelle (perhaps the ones modified for the US market?) have a trailing 'bullet' flairing extending rearwards from the tailplane/fin joint. Anyone know what this is for? Perhaps these versions had power assissted elevators/rudder ?


...I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tanhauser Gate....
User currently offlineScooter01 From Norway, joined Nov 2006, 1204 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3070 times:
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Quoting MerlinIIIB (Thread starter):
Why do some models have the "ridge" extension forward of the tail?

It contained antennas

Quoting MerlinIIIB (Thread starter):
What are the main differences between the Caravelle models? (

The visual differences started with the VI-R when the Caravelle changed from the earlier "Comet-style" nose to a different windshield arrangement with larger windows.

Compare the side-windows in the cockpit of the 2 planes

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mel Lawrence




The 12 (Super Caravelle) had a 1m (3'3") fuselage extension, no forward extension (antenna-housing) in front of the tail-fin. It also had a forward extension in the wing leading-edge near the root. The horizontal stabiliser also had a greater span. The bullet-fairing in the tail was just an aerodynamic enhancement.
The Super A had GE engines with the fan at the rear of the engine. (Mostly used in the U.S.)
The Super B had the JT-8D engine which you would have seen on the Finnair and Sterling machines

Scooter

[Edited 2007-04-04 01:00:29]

[Edited 2007-04-04 01:04:49]


"We all have a girl and her name is nostalgia" - Hemingway
User currently offlineOly720man From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 6725 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3067 times:

Quoting MerlinIIIB (Thread starter):
1. Why do some models have the "ridge" extension forward of the tail?

The ridge (or dorsal fin) contained avionics.

( http://www.livingtravel.com/family/g...higges/aircraft/info/caravelle.doc )



wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3060 times:

Anyone have a picture of a Super-A?

Andrea Kent


User currently offlineMerlinIIIB From Norway, joined Aug 2005, 121 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 2973 times:

Quoting Oly720man (Reply 4):
The ridge (or dorsal fin) contained avionics.

Thank you all for excellent replies. However, it is still strange that the 10B3 appear
both with and without the dorsal fin. HF antennas on special versions flying overseas?

How did the Caravelle behave compared to modern airliners? Any articles/links about its
flying characteristics?


User currently offlineSaleya22R From France, joined Mar 2007, 60 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2899 times:
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I believe the cone behind the tailplane had something to do with the APU. The exhaust was located at the end of this cone, at least in Finnair's 10B's.

User currently offlineBAe146QT From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2006, 996 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2869 times:

Quoting MerlinIIIB (Reply 6):
How did the Caravelle behave compared to modern airliners?

I know you didn't ask me (I'm not a professional pilot and I've certainly never flown the Caravelle except in a PC simulator), but something about the look of it says that it would have been very sprightly. I was going to say that I suspect it was tame in the roll axis, but I'm not sure really.

Actually, I'd be very interested to know how the mounting of that tailplane affected things.

Looks to me like a compromise between keeping it out of the exhaust, and avoiding the potential deep stall characteristics of the HS.121.



Todos mis dominós son totalmente pegajosos
User currently offlineScooter01 From Norway, joined Nov 2006, 1204 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2809 times:
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Quoting Saleya22R (Reply 7):
I believe the cone behind the tailplane had something to do with the APU. The exhaust was located at the end of this cone, at least in Finnair's 10B's.



Quoting Scooter01 (Reply 3):
The bullet-fairing in the tail was just an aerodynamic enhancement.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Paul Goddard


As can be seen in this photo, the APU exhaust exits slighthly upwards from the fuselage tail-cone. The APU air-intake is located in the fuselage under the centre of the rudder.

Scooter



"We all have a girl and her name is nostalgia" - Hemingway
User currently offlineFTOHIST From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 73 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2791 times:

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 5):
Anyone have a picture of a Super-A?

Here's the prototype....


Big version: Width: 500 Height: 409 File size: 26kb


User currently offlineJetlagged From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 2556 posts, RR: 24
Reply 11, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2787 times:

Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 8):
Looks to me like a compromise between keeping it out of the exhaust, and avoiding the potential deep stall characteristics of the HS.121.

The Caravelle design predates the discovery of deep stall on the Trident and One-Eleven. If anything the lower set tail might even make it worse, the engines and tailplane look nicely lined up in the stalled wing wake.

Mounting the tailplane lower on the fin reduces structural weight, compared to a T tail. And with a T tail the Caravelle would not have looked so elegant.



The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2781 times:

Interesting about the Caravelle.
It had hydraulic power boosted control surfaces, and some models, used by the French Post Office, had autoland capability, even before the Trident.
Others were limited to autopilot use to 50 feet only.
The normal cruise speed was M.77, and most models carried a Flight Engineer.
I personally went to systems ground school on the Caravelle, as a corporate model was purchased by a rather well known personality, Colonel Harland Sanders, of Kentucky Fried Chicken fame.
However, just before delivery of the airplane, Hubelin bought KFC, and scrapped the idea of a corporate Caravelle.
We were not pleased.
Oh yes, forgot to mention.
The Caravelle did not have a published Vmca, as it was less than the stall speed.

[Edited 2007-04-05 07:05:59]

User currently offlineJetlagged From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 2556 posts, RR: 24
Reply 13, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2731 times:

Quoting 411A (Reply 12):
I personally went to systems ground school on the Caravelle, as a corporate model was purchased by a rather well known personality, Colonel Harland Sanders, of Kentucky Fried Chicken fame.

Very interesting "nugget" of information. Shows the Colonel had good taste in more than just cookery  Smile



The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17039 posts, RR: 66
Reply 14, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2729 times:

Interesting 411A. Thx for info.

Quoting 411A (Reply 12):
The Caravelle did not have a published Vmca, as it was less than the stall speed.

Wouldn't they then be equal?

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 11):
And with a T tail the Caravelle would not have looked so elegant.

The badass argument rears its head! I would agree that a cruciform tail reduces weight compared to a T-tail.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineCF-CPI From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 1058 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2710 times:

If I'm not mistaken, TWA looked closely at the Super A, as the GE engines would have been compatible with their Convair 880s fleet (yeah the Super A had the fans, but I think alot of the engine core was the same).

I read that the Super A was basically a non-started in the market because the GE CJ-805-23B engine had a terrible reputation in the early 60s (both AA and Swissair having major problems). It's a pity because the aft-fan looked really nice on the Caravelle.

The larger cockpit windows that came in with the VI-R were mandated by the FAA for American certification.

Ah .... the things that could have been.


User currently offlineDH106 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 626 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2680 times:

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 15):
If I'm not mistaken, TWA looked closely at the Super A, as the GE engines would have been compatible with their Convair 880s fleet (yeah the Super A had the fans, but I think alot of the engine core was the same).

Ahh - so is this the same 'rear fan' design as used on the Convair 990 ?



...I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tanhauser Gate....
User currently offlineCF-CPI From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 1058 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2623 times:

Quoting DH106 (Reply 16):
Ahh - so is this the same 'rear fan' design as used on the Convair 990 ?

Yes, the same one. On the 990, the engine pod was like a barrel surrounding the entire engine core, with effectively a long duct leading to the fan in the rear. For the Caravelle, the core is exposed until that rear cowling surrounding the fan. I suspect it was easier to mount on the rear fuselage that way.


User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2529 times:

Were any Super A's built other than a prototype?

Andrea Kent


User currently offlineFTOHIST From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 73 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2521 times:

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 18):
Were any Super A's built other than a prototype?

Andrea Kent

I think I have become slightly confused over the model designation. Actually the GE-engined airplane was the "prototype" for what would have been the Series VII Caravelle built by Douglas. GE bought a brand new series III airplane (#42) and their flight test division at Edwards AFB installed CJ805-23 engines, an APU in the tail and upgraded the aircraft systems. I don't know what the Super A would have been.

There was quite a bit of interest at the time in the series VII, but it depends on who you ask as far as why nothing happened. GE people say that President Johnson was adamant that no U.S. company would build a French design and forbid the operation to take place. Douglas came out with the DC-9 some time later and that part is well known. I have always struggled with the question of why Douglas would partner so heavily with GE and then leave the whole thing on the table.

Anyway, the airplane (N420GE) performed considerably better with the CJ805's--shorter takeoff and higher payload. It was flown all over the U.S. and even made the Paris Airshow (can't remember the year). After everything fell through, it was sold back to Sud and then reverted back to a standard series III and sold to Air France, I believe. It is one of the "missing" Caravelles in Africa. It may still exist.......


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