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DL Begins Intersection Takeoffs On JFK's 31L  
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5410 times:

I'd heard about this, but didn't believe it was actually being implemented until I heard it straight out of the horse's mouth:

on their domestic, international, and shorter intercontinental nonstops departing JFK's Rwy 31L, DL aircraft will now enter the runway at the last intersection before crossing 22R, where they will begin their takeoff rolls with still more than 10,000ft to go. The airline claims a 33% reduction in avg taxi time at that airport on the onset of this procedure.
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Nothing really dramatic, at this airport anyways; but still interesting--- particularly considering the old aviation quip re: "the most useless thing in the world".  Wink

What say you types?

23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineFeroze From India, joined Dec 2004, 794 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5359 times:

Big version: Width: 399 Height: 576 File size: 675kb


If I'm correct (usually a big if!), the entry into 31L will be at K/KA


User currently offlineAlitaliaMD11 From Spain, joined Dec 2003, 4068 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5350 times:

I've seen this before at JFK.

At first it was Delta CRJ-200s that were taking off of 31L while all other traffic was departing 22R but then Delta 767-300s started departing the same way and then a few American 757s and 767s did it as well.



No Vueling No Party
User currently offlineInnocuousFox From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2805 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks ago) and read 5199 times:

It's a similar situation to the Tango-10 intersection on 31L at ORD. It's just north of where it crosses 9R/27L.


Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17439 posts, RR: 46
Reply 4, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5104 times:

That means an incredibly short taxi from their terminal. Must save on gas too.


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21564 posts, RR: 55
Reply 5, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5104 times:

Intersection departures themselves on 31L at JFK are nothing new. What is new is that they'll be doing this while the 4s/22s are in use.

[quote=Feroze,reply=1]If I'm correct (usually a big if!), the entry into 31L will be at K/KA[quote]

It'll be from KK. K and KA would interfere with the taxi route to 4L. From where I sit, the key to this plan is that the 4s/22s can remain operational. If only the 31s are in use, there's no realistic way that intersection departures can be used for some aircraft and not for others. Since using the intersection for departures will really jam up the taxiways in the area if there is a large amount of traffic, I don't think you'll find this in use at busy periods when just the 31s are in use. But it will save time for domestic flights when the 22s or 4s are in use.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineAlitaliaMD11 From Spain, joined Dec 2003, 4068 posts, RR: 13
Reply 6, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5092 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
That means an incredibly short taxi from their terminal. Must save on gas too.

You will also notice when 31R/31L landings are in effect almost every Delta flight goes in on 31L if they have clearance, for shorter taxi time to Terminal 3. However Delta is not the only airline that does that.



No Vueling No Party
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5047 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 5):
Intersection departures themselves on 31L at JFK are nothing new.

...for regional flights, sure--- but intercon widebodies?


User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3165 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4980 times:

This procedure is not airline specific. We've been doing it at JetBlue as well. It took too much effort on the part of the major airline users such as JetBlue and Delta to finally convince the Port Authority to allow this. It should have been a no-brainer.

The decision on which flights get 31L KK is based on a flight's first departure fix, not airline or terminal location.



FLYi
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21564 posts, RR: 55
Reply 9, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4640 times:

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 7):
...for regional flights, sure--- but intercon widebodies?

Not particularly - it's often done when traffic is light. In any case, as mentioned by PITrules, who gets the intersection departure is based on departure fixes. To avoid having to cross the departure or arrival paths, aircraft assigned the intersection will be departing to the west, and aircraft on 4/22 will be departing to the east. Since almost all the intercon widebodies are going east to Europe, they won't be using 31L in that runway configuration.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineDALMD88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2543 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4502 times:

I flew out of JFK back in Feb. For some reason we were forced to take the grand tour to get to the end of 31L. We took taxiway A around the entire terminal area. I don't really understand why. The airport at that hour was pretty well deserted and others were coming directly down the side of 31R.

User currently offlinePositiverate From United States of America, joined May 2005, 1590 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4370 times:

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 7):
Quoting Mir (Reply 5):
Intersection departures themselves on 31L at JFK are nothing new.

...for regional flights, sure--- but intercon widebodies?

I've departed at the intersection a few times headed for SVO. Doesn't seem to be that big of a deal.


User currently offlineRDUDDJI From Lesotho, joined Jun 2004, 1472 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4123 times:

Quoting InnocuousFox (Reply 3):
It's a similar situation to the Tango-10 intersection on 31L at ORD. It's just north of where it crosses 9R/27L

It's actually 32L (not 31L) that has the T10 departures.



Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
User currently offlineUN_B732 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 4289 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4081 times:

I've departed at the intersection going to SVO too.. Seriously, my jaw almost dropped when I realized how short the taxi was, my Freedom Dash 8 from BTV spent more time taxiing..
-A



What now?
User currently offlineInnocuousFox From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2805 posts, RR: 14
Reply 14, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4062 times:

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 12):
It's actually 32L (not 31L) that has the T10 departures.

Sigh. I knew that. I don't know what my problem is today.
 mad 



Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
User currently offlineKevin82277 From United States of America, joined May 2000, 179 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3971 times:

Unless the winds are too strong to do this, they do this most mornings and nights during rush hour. All aircaft departing to the Southwest use 31L @ KK and the rest will use 22R or 4L. It is very common these days for all aircraft.

User currently offlineCorey07850 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2527 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3463 times:

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 7):
...for regional flights, sure--- but intercon widebodies?

Yeah... nothing new really. Pilots will request to depart from K, KA, or KK if they have the numbers for it. I've even seen fully laden 747 freighters request intersections rather than 31L full length. The same thing goes on at EWR with departures off 22R @ W to avoid the added runway crossing of 11/29


User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3299 times:

Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 2):
At first it was Delta CRJ-200s that were taking off of 31L while all other traffic was departing 22R but then Delta 767-300s started departing the same way and then a few American 757s and 767s did it as well.

As Mir pointed out, this is the real "new thing." I noticed this pattern two weeks ago when I was driving to JFK to see the A380...Anyone know when this started?


User currently offlineB707Stu From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 918 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2970 times:

Yes, it's the Kilo Kilo (KK) take-off on 31L, not unusual, hear it happen all the time on the live ATC.

User currently offlineRichierich From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 4248 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2562 times:

A couple of questions regarding the JFK 31L intersection takeoffs:

- Is it just DL that is allowed to do this? Based on all of the posts, it seems that is the case.

- While the intersection takeoffs are presumably quicker for the aircraft doing the taking-off, does it actually add to the delay for the aircraft waiting to depart at the far end of the runway?



None shall pass!!!!
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21564 posts, RR: 55
Reply 20, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2515 times:

Quoting Richierich (Reply 19):
Is it just DL that is allowed to do this? Based on all of the posts, it seems that is the case.

Nope, any airline that can take off from KK will be able to (if ATC allows).

Quoting Richierich (Reply 19):
While the intersection takeoffs are presumably quicker for the aircraft doing the taking-off, does it actually add to the delay for the aircraft waiting to depart at the far end of the runway?

It depends. Sometimes the delay will be longer for the intersection departures as they have to wait for wake turbulence separation (longer from an intersection than from the full length). Mixing intersection departures with full length departures will slow down the operation, which is why you're unlikely to see it done very often - either everyone will go from the intersection or nobody will (with limited exceptions).

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineRichierich From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 4248 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2475 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 20):
It depends. Sometimes the delay will be longer for the intersection departures as they have to wait for wake turbulence separation (longer from an intersection than from the full length). Mixing intersection departures with full length departures will slow down the operation, which is why you're unlikely to see it done very often - either everyone will go from the intersection or nobody will (with limited exceptions).

Thanks for the insight - I wasn't aware of all of that.



None shall pass!!!!
User currently offlineKevin82277 From United States of America, joined May 2000, 179 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2261 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 20):
It depends. Sometimes the delay will be longer for the intersection departures as they have to wait for wake turbulence separation (longer from an intersection than from the full length). Mixing intersection departures with full length departures will slow down the operation, which is why you're unlikely to see it done very often - either everyone will go from the intersection or nobody will (with limited exceptions).

This is not completly true. Using the intersection departures is much better and reduces the delay alot. When they do use the intersection departures, they will have one plane in position on 31L @ KK and have a few departures on 22R. Once the 22R departure clears 31L on the roll, they clear 31L aircraft for takeoff, and have another taxi into position. Most all SW departures use 31L, it greatly reduces the taxi time. They will use this everyday the winds allow them to. It is great when they do use this. But not everyday the winds will allow this, so you won't see it everyday. And they only do this during peak departures times.


User currently offlineMirrodie From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 7443 posts, RR: 62
Reply 23, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2261 times:
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Quoting PITrules (Reply 8):
This procedure is not airline specific.



Quoting Positiverate (Reply 11):
Doesn't seem to be that big of a deal.

Exactly. It's been done for a long time. Not news.



Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
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