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Boeing Researching Biofuel Blend Jet Fuel  
User currently offlineBoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2797 times:

From the Telegraph (UK):

Quote:
Boeing is working on plans to develop a "biofuel blend" derived from plants or algae that could power conventional jets. Executives at the company said a hybrid fuel could be available within five years, using the same engines that currently propel aircraft.

Bill Glover, the managing director of environmental strategy at Boeing Commercial Airplanes, said: "We could see something within five years." He stressed that any fuel would still be a blend, with between 20 per cent and 40 per cent derived from a plant source.

Boeing has teamed up with BP and Royal Dutch Shell to help launch the Commercial Aviation Alternative Fuels Initiative to explore the viability of alternative fuels.

According to Glover, one of the main questions is "can we find plant sources that don't compete with food sources". One project is testing the viability of bio jet fuel from the Babassu tree in Brazil.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/mai...l=/money/2007/04/22/cnboeing22.xml

Can anyone explain to me why biofuels don't add to greenhouse emissions but coal and oil do? Aren't coal and oil just really old dead plants?

38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2454 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2741 times:

While you still emit the same amount of CO2 gross, some CO2 would have been absorbed by the plant during photosynthesis for the proportion of plant derived fuel. So the net emission is less.

Now it depends what type of biofuel. If it's a blend of fossil fuel with hydrocarbons derived from plants, you reduce net CO2 emissions. If the fuel is totally derived from plant then you emit zero CO2 net.

Now why is it boeing's business? Sure it has nothing to do with the airframe but the engines?



A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
User currently offlineKhobar From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2379 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2716 times:

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 1):
While you still emit the same amount of CO2 gross, some CO2 would have been absorbed by the plant during photosynthesis for the proportion of plant derived fuel. So the net emission is less.

The plant waste product releases the rest through eventual decay, so the net emission is not less.


User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2703 times:

Quoting Khobar (Reply 2):

The plant waste product releases the rest through eventual decay, so the net emission is not less.

What?


User currently offlineFlyabunch From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 517 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2683 times:

The principle advantage of bio-fuels over prehistoric fuels (petroleum) are that the CO2 release nets out. The carbon was stored by the plant in the present and re-released in the present. This process is much preferred over the release of CO2 that was locked up millions of years ago because it will build up.

If you started out at a zero point and you only used biofuels, there would be no increase in atmospheric CO2 over time. You would be storing it as fast as you were releasing it.

Mike


User currently offlineKaddyuk From Wallis and Futuna, joined Nov 2001, 4126 posts, RR: 26
Reply 5, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2669 times:

I Wonder if they can do anything about the smell or taste while they're at it...


Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
User currently offlineSilverComet From Mauritius, joined Apr 2007, 85 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2666 times:

Quoting Flyabunch (Reply 4):
prehistoric fuels (petroleum)

I believe the correct term is fossil fuels.

What is attractive about so called 'bio fuels' is not the CO2 emissions but rather the relatively lower cost of making them available and the fact that using more of them would reduce dependence on the oil cartels.


User currently offlineFlyabunch From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 517 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2644 times:

Quoting SilverComet (Reply 6):
I believe the correct term is fossil fuels.

You are quite correct. However, I have been using the term "prehistoric" based on a seminar I attended last year where the speaker felt it was a better way to explain the fact that the CO2 was locked up for a long time and any release was additive to the modern world's total.. I realize that it is a fine point but not a big deal.

Mike


User currently offlineCobra27 From Slovenia, joined May 2001, 1009 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2636 times:

If there would really be a shortage of oil, the first thing airlines would do is put in more seats. Away with first and business class. Algae? Maybe, but you will need a heck of a field (or sear or wherever they grow) to suply even 20% percent blend for even one 747 flight? Around 40 tons!

User currently offlineLehpron From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 7028 posts, RR: 21
Reply 9, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2616 times:

Quoting Cobra27 (Reply 8):
If there would really be a shortage of oil, the first thing airlines would do is put in more seats. Away with first and business class. Algae? Maybe, but you will need a heck of a field (or sear or wherever they grow) to suply even 20% percent blend for even one 747 flight? Around 40 tons!

Have you heard of steps? All research projects start out small scale to determine feasibility, practicality, profitability, etc. Your reaction gave me the impression as if the intent is to go into full production afterwards. We do not know the result of Boeing's study, we cannot say either way.



The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
User currently offlineKaddyuk From Wallis and Futuna, joined Nov 2001, 4126 posts, RR: 26
Reply 10, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2583 times:

Quoting Cobra27 (Reply 8):
but you will need a heck of a field (or sear or wherever they grow) to suply even 20% percent blend for even one 747 flight? Around 40 tons!

40 tonnes of fuel not for one flight... The aircraft can only carry 160 tonnes of fuel... 20% of this is 32 tonnes... You'd only need less than half that for a 20% blend on an average 8hr sector...



Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17003 posts, RR: 67
Reply 11, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2543 times:

Quoting Cobra27 (Reply 8):
If there would really be a shortage of oil, the first thing airlines would do is put in more seats. Away with first and business class.

Airlines would take away Monkey Class first. First and Business would stay since that's where airlines (apart from LCC and charter) make their money. A BA flight LHR-JFK with empty Monkey Class and full Biz and First still makes money.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineSilverComet From Mauritius, joined Apr 2007, 85 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2536 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 11):

The question is would you be able to fill up an aircraft with First and Business Class pax only?


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17003 posts, RR: 67
Reply 13, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2525 times:

Quoting SilverComet (Reply 12):
The question is would you be able to fill up an aircraft with First and Business Class pax only?

You miss the point. Even with Monkey Class empty on, say, a 777, the airline would make a profit. If nothing else, all that cargo space for Monkey Class bags could be used for much more lucrative freight.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineCobra27 From Slovenia, joined May 2001, 1009 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 2521 times:

And Boeing claim to research Biofuel and yagidi yakak is only a good advertisement move for all those who have an urgent need to save the planet.......
The 787 is something new cheaper to fly than today, something that airlines like. But with a 20% less fuel burnt it wont save the planet. Infact the fuel burnt per seat would bu roughly equal to 744, only the frequency and maintenance cost would be improved.
And about the fuel, it is more about engine manufactuers than Boeing, RR GE and PW


User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2488 times:

There's no reason why it wouldn't work, the only issue is getting fuel blends standardized and getting the certification done on the engines. The issues to be addressed would be low temperature fluidity and corrosion potential of biofuel, as well as cleanliness of combustion and combustion byproducts and emission.

Biodiesel is pretty much the same stuff, and a lot of people in this part of the world are cooking it up in garages and small buildings and running diesel pickups on it. I have visited a pilot plant in Nevada, Iowa where biodiesel is made from soya oil, spent fryer grease, yellow grease (slaughterhouse waste) and brown grease (from sewage plants).

Here is an interesting article on making biodiesel.

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html

http://www.energy.iastate.edu/becon/


User currently offlineSilverComet From Mauritius, joined Apr 2007, 85 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2477 times:

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 15):
Here is an interesting article on making biodiesel

I have recently read this same article, while looking up alternative sources of energy for road vehicles. If I had a diesel car, that's what I would be doing right now.


User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6346 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2465 times:

Quoting Khobar (Reply 2):
The plant waste product releases the rest through eventual decay, so the net emission is not less.

Depends on how you dispose of the "slash", or the crop leftovers.

If they are burned, then yes, what you said is more or less true. If however, it is mulched, than most of the carbon is returned to the soil.



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8944 posts, RR: 40
Reply 18, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2464 times:

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 15):
yellow grease (slaughterhouse waste)

ConocoPhillips and Tyson (the frozen chicken company) are partnering up to produce biodiesel out of the fat from Tyson's processing plants. The article I read mentioned something nearly (iirc) 175 million gallons of fuel could be produced.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 15):
There's no reason why it wouldn't work, the only issue is getting fuel blends standardized and getting the certification done on the engines.

At least with ethanol, there is a range/payload reduction. Embraer's subsidiary, NEIVA, has a cropduster running on ethanol. . . hundreds delivered new or converted from AvGas.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineCobra27 From Slovenia, joined May 2001, 1009 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2457 times:

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 15):
There's no reason why it wouldn't work, the only issue is getting fuel blends standardized and getting the certification done on the engines.

Who said it wouldn't work?
Can you please explain how to produce such a vast quantities of biofuel, and consider that photosinthesisi only converts one thousands of the energy it receives


User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2449 times:

Quoting Cobra27 (Reply 19):
nd consider that photosinthesisi only converts one thousands of the energy it receives

Photosynthesis is about 6.5% efficienct, not 0.1% efficient.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8944 posts, RR: 40
Reply 21, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2449 times:

Quoting Cobra27 (Reply 19):
Can you please explain how to produce such a vast quantities of biofuel, and consider that photosinthesisi only converts one thousands of the energy it receives

The only CO2 release is what the plant contains, which should be the same amount of CO2 needed to grow another plant just like that one. It recycles it. Net change is zero.

Today is not possible to replace all fossil fuels. Nowhere near that. But with R&D we can increase the energy generated per pound of plant significantly.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineCobra27 From Slovenia, joined May 2001, 1009 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2411 times:

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 20):
Photosynthesis is about 6.5% efficienct, not 0.1% efficient.

Really, where did you get that info?


User currently offlineBoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2406 times:

Quoting Cobra27 (Reply 8):
Algae? Maybe, but you will need a heck of a field (or sear or wherever they grow) to suply even 20% percent blend for even one 747 flight? Around 40 tons!

The article states:

Earlier this year another Boeing executive, Dave Nielson, told the Transportation Research Board that if the US used biofuel for 15 per cent of its average fuel requirements, it would require cultivation of an area the size of Florida, or about 10 per cent of America's total cropland. Similar analysis showed that if airlines used 100 per cent of bio jet fuel from algae, it would require cultivation of an area the size of Maryland.



User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2403 times:

Quoting Cobra27 (Reply 22):
Really, where did you get that info?

Rosati, A., Dejong, T.M.; 'Estimating Photosynthetic Radiation Use Efficiently Using Incident Light and Photosynehtsis of Individual Leaves' Ann. of Botany 91 (2003) pp. 869-877.


25 Dougloid : I don't recall saying anythig about a vast quantity of fuel, and no, I won't explain how the stuff is made.
26 Cloudy : The important assumption buried in that statement is this - that if such a plant were not grown for biofuel, it would not grow at all. This is highly
27 Tristarsteve : I have always been sceptical about global warming. I still am. I remember when I was a teenager in the 1960s. We learned then that we were approachin
28 Dougloid : Not only is farmland a finite resource, it suffers from continuous corn cropping which is very tough on soil. I suspect a lot of people are going who
29 SilverComet : While I also suspect that the 'peak oil' nightmare might be a bit overrated, I believe that global warming is a very real and present problem. The av
30 PPVRA : I agree completely. All you are doing, however, is replacing that plant with a different one. I'm not a biologist, but I would assume it's safe to as
31 Dougloid : Would that be the same Brazil that pitched the bitch at the last Doha round with the group of 20 and all that, poor dirt farmers in their loincloths
32 PPVRA : I'm confused. Are you trying to hijack the thread or something?
33 Dougloid : Yeah, pretty much. I'm interested in ag exports and ag policy. It sems a little disingenuous for the world's largest agricultural exporter (as you sa
34 PPVRA : I never said that, nor anything remotely close to that. I'm all for laissez-faire. But there is no point in hiding from the fact that tariffs decreas
35 Post contains images STXBohn : Not to be too technical; however, this would only really be true if the energy required to derive and process the biofuel was completely generated fr
36 Dougloid : I did not mean to suggest that you said that, and for that you deserve a small mea culpa. I follow the WTO pretty closely and Brazil is one of the gr
37 Trent1000 : Well, If you can run your car purely on used but filtered cooking oil without engine modification, airlines should also look at how to fuel their engi
38 Dougloid : You can run a jet engine on anything that'll burn (Union Pacific actually tried powdered coal), but aircraft engines are certified with a particular
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