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Citation I Drag Chute?  
User currently offlineFlight152 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 3413 posts, RR: 6
Posted (7 years 8 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4473 times:

I have an operating manual for a Cessna Citation I/ISP and was suprised to see that a drag chute was optional for use during ground operations. Has anyone actually seen an example of an aircraft with this system installed?

24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineTlfd29 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 8 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4421 times:

There is a Falcon 20 on our field that is equipped with a drag chute. Not sure about the actuation of it or what the system is composed of.

User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 2, posted (7 years 8 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4420 times:

Quoting Tlfd29 (Reply 1):
There is a Falcon 20 on our field that is equipped with a drag chute

Is it a cargo ver.? All the old Fedex Falcons had drag chutes.


User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5454 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (7 years 8 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4417 times:

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 2):
All the old Fedex Falcons had drag chutes.

It was actually standard (or a common option) on Falcon 20's, pax or cargo, at one time.

Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineAeroweanie From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1610 posts, RR: 52
Reply 4, posted (7 years 8 months 19 hours ago) and read 4360 times:
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Some Learjet 35/36s have drag chutes. I learned about them from this accident report:

Quote:
On December 3, 2002, at 0612 Pacific standard time, a Gates Learjet 36A, N546PA, was destroyed after colliding with an elk, and subsequent runway overrun, at the Astoria Regional Airport, Astoria, Oregon. The airplane is registered to C F F Air, Incorporated, Wilmington, Delaware, and was being operated in support of a Canadian Armed Forces training exercise under the provisions of Title 14, CFR Part 91, when the accident occurred. The two pilots and two support personnel aboard the aircraft were not injured. The accident occurred approximately 1 hour and 30 minutes before sunrise under visual meteorological conditions. Impact forces and post crash fire destroyed the airplane.

During a telephone conversation with the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) investigator-in-charge on December 3, the pilot-in-command (PIC) reported that during acceleration for takeoff (approximately V1 [takeoff decision speed]) the airplane collided with an elk (the left wing was the initial impact point). The PIC reported that after the collision, he applied wheel brakes and deployed the airplane's drag chute, however, the airplane continued off the departure end of the runway 08. The airplane came to rest in a marshy bog approximately 180 feet beyond the departure threshold.


User currently offlineBAe146QT From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2006, 996 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 8 months 18 hours ago) and read 4332 times:

Quoting Aeroweanie (Reply 4):
I learned about them from this accident report:

You know - although it didn't end very well for the plane, (and probably ended badly for the elk as well) you have to agree that this would have been much worse had this happened at 30,000 feet.

I mean, after all, someone would have to explain what an elk was doing up that high in the first place.



Todos mis dominós son totalmente pegajosos
User currently offlineTlfd29 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 8 months 15 hours ago) and read 4309 times:

The Falcon is a passenger aircraft. I do not know its full history, but as far as I know it has only flown people.

User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 8 months 14 hours ago) and read 4291 times:

Quoting Tlfd29 (Reply 6):
The Falcon is a passenger aircraft. I do not know its full history, but as far as I know it has only flown people.

There are freighter Falcons.


User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8956 posts, RR: 60
Reply 8, posted (7 years 8 months 14 hours ago) and read 4278 times:
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Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 7):
There are freighter Falcons.

Indeed there are....plenty in the database, in fact.

 Smile

2H4





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User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 8 months 13 hours ago) and read 4269 times:

Quoting Tlfd29 (Reply 6):
The Falcon is a passenger aircraft. I do not know its full history, but as far as I know it has only flown people.

There are freighter Falcons.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 8):
Indeed there are....plenty in the database, in fact.

I knew there were, I've seen them and even taken off behind them before, but running a search just seemed like too much work for something I already knew.  Smile


User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8956 posts, RR: 60
Reply 10, posted (7 years 8 months 13 hours ago) and read 4267 times:
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Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 9):
I knew there were, I've seen them and even taken off behind them before, but running a search just seemed like too much work for something I already knew.

Oh, I didn't mean to correct you....just helping show Tlfd what they look like. I think it's interesting that a jet designed for corporate luxury found such success as a freighter. I wonder if the designers ever foresaw such a mission requirement.


2H4





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User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 8 months 13 hours ago) and read 4264 times:

Running small high-value freight on a Falcon (or other Jet... I've seen old Lears in this use too, especially checkrunning) makes more sense than using the Cessna Caravan. The speeds at which the Caravan runs you almost wonder why they didn't just truck it. Especially some of those Fed Ex Feeder routes.

Back on topic... how does this chute work? Somewhat like a dragster? Why not just use a thrust reverser?


User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8956 posts, RR: 60
Reply 12, posted (7 years 8 months 13 hours ago) and read 4259 times:
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Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 11):
Back on topic... how does this chute work? Somewhat like a dragster? Why not just use a thrust reverser?

Yep, just like a dragster. Many of the jets that employed the system didn't have reversers. The Hawker -400 series comes to mind. Reversers notwithstanding, though, I think the idea was to provide a method of slowing above and beyond reversers, in the event of engine failure(s), for example. I'm sure some of the more seasoned folks around here can provide some more specific info and stories....


2H4





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User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 8 months 13 hours ago) and read 4258 times:

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 12):
Yep, just like a dragster.

Thinking back to my (very limited) experience with dragsters, that's got to be a b**ch to repack... not to mention having to drag it back to the ramp after you've slowed and turned off. Interesting concept though. Would love to see one in action somewhere, but it seems as if they'd be a last-resort deal.


User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8956 posts, RR: 60
Reply 14, posted (7 years 8 months 12 hours ago) and read 4257 times:
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Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 13):
Thinking back to my (very limited) experience with dragsters, that's got to be a b**ch to repack

Yeah, it must be a pain. I wonder whether there's an explosive charge to release it...

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 13):
not to mention having to drag it back to the ramp after you've slowed and turned off.

I know some military jets can release the chute after they've slowed. Not sure if the same holds true for bizjets.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 13):
Would love to see one in action somewhere, but it seems as if they'd be a last-resort deal.

Boy, you'd really have to be in the right place at the right time for that shot.  Smile

I found a shot of a Learjet using a chute:




2H4





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User currently offlineTlfd29 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 8 months 12 hours ago) and read 4253 times:

Thanks for the examples 2H4. I had no idea the 20 was used so extensively for cargo purposes. I know the pilots of the 20 on our field keep saying they need to test the chute and promise they'll let us ride along, but no luck so far.

User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8956 posts, RR: 60
Reply 16, posted (7 years 8 months 12 hours ago) and read 4248 times:
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Quoting Tlfd29 (Reply 15):
promise they'll let us ride along

Keep on them about that, and be sure to station a buddy by the runway to get some shots!

Here's another shot:




2H4





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User currently offlineAeroweanie From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1610 posts, RR: 52
Reply 17, posted (7 years 8 months 12 hours ago) and read 4247 times:
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Fedex got their start in 1973 with Falcon 20s, as the US laws at that time made it difficult for them to use anything bigger. Wanting a bigger freighter, the determined that a freighter version of the Challenger would be legal and would have greater capacity. They got Canadair to create a freighter version of the Challenger and ordered a sizeable number. Before they took delivery of any, Fred Smith got the US Congress to change the laws in 1977, allowing him to operate bigger freighters. Fedex cancelled their Challenger orders and started buying 727s. When they sold their Falcons, many ended up with Flight Refueling in the UK. Here is one airframe, before and after:

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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.
View Large View Medium
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Photo © Tom Sunley



Ironically, many years later Fedex bought some Challengers as corporate jets:

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Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.



User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 8 months 12 hours ago) and read 4242 times:

Interesting stuff guys. Thanks.

A billionaire in my hometown here has a Falcon 20. It must be a bit of a rocket, as it has taken off from his resort's 3980' private runway (PA88) at an elevation of about 2000' which equates to a relatively high DA in the summer heat. Definitely made a nice bit of noise coming over our high school a few miles under his mountain ridge back in the day when I was there. Had no idea he had a parachute behind that thing... couldn't hurt though with the little strip he was landing that thing at up there. I'm meeting the pilot of it in a week here, I'll have to remember to ask him about the 'chute.


User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (7 years 8 months 4 hours ago) and read 4205 times:

Quoting Tlfd29 (Reply 15):
I had no idea the 20 was used so extensively for cargo purposes

The Falcons were still flying when I got hired but I went to the 727 and only flew a DA-20 in a previous corp. job that had reversers and the chute was removed. From the stories I heard told the chute was used almost solely for stopping on a cluttered runway and more than one guy pulled the deploy handle only to have the chute fall out of the tail covered in ice and never open.

Quoting Aeroweanie (Reply 17):
ronically, many years later Fedex bought some Challengers as corporate jets:

Actually from what I was told that was part of the deal...Fedex helped Canadair get going and in return they got a couple as corp jets in the end.


User currently offlineUscgc130 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 8 months 4 hours ago) and read 4200 times:

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 12):
Many of the jets that employed the system didn't have reversers. The Hawker -400 series comes to mind

The U.S. Coast Guard's HU-25A Guardians (Falcon 20s) have chutes because they were delivered without thrust reversers in order to keep costs down.


User currently offlineDashTrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1563 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 4046 times:

The Lears have a handle next to the FO for the chute if installed. The chute itself is located on the back side of the door to the hell hole. I think the idea is in the event of a hydraulic failure, you have something to augment the emergency brakes which have a 3 shot limit if memory serves. Been a while since I flew it, so that number might be off.

User currently offlinePilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3152 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4030 times:

The challenger was actually designed as a freighter from the outset. FedEx wanted something that could expand after deregulation yet could already carry containers. Cargo was deregulated in 1977 (one year before pax) and Fred decided to start buying up every 727 he could since parts and pilots were easy to come by.

Canadair found a better use for the challenger as a business jet and it was later lengthened to create the CRJ.



DMI
User currently offlineAeroWeanie From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1610 posts, RR: 52
Reply 23, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4005 times:
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Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 22):
The challenger was actually designed as a freighter from the outset.

No it wasn't.

The Challenger started life as a Bill Lear design, the Learstar 600, which was a business jet (Lear was by then no longer connected with the Learjet company). The concept was to combine a stand-up cabin with a supercritical wing and high bypass ratio turbofans. He sold the design to Canadair, who built a developed version of this as the CL-600. The freighter version was developed a bit later at Fedex's instigation. For the complete story, read "Winging It: The Making of the Canadair Challenger" by Stewart Logie.


User currently offlineAeroWeanie From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1610 posts, RR: 52
Reply 24, posted (7 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3995 times:
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Here is a model of the Learstar 600 design. Note the low tail...



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