Sponsor Message:
Aviation Technical / Operations Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
777-200/-300 And 777-200LR/-300ER  
User currently offlineAirportGal From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 73 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 14517 times:

How do air traffic control people at an airport visually differentiate between a 777-200 and a -200LR, or a 777-300 and a -300ER on the airfield?

17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30877 posts, RR: 86
Reply 1, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 14498 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I imagine they don't, since the only real giveaway is the raked wingtips on the longer-ranged models, though if they have binoculars or darn good eyes they could probably detect that.

User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 2, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 14342 times:

Good question:

Its only an issue for dealing with PK, SQ, JL EK and NH though.

Airport/tower people will want to know when giving taxi instructions really - thats the only reason you'd need to know:

i.e.:

"Shamrock 12 behind Emirates triple seven taxi and hold Foxtrot one one"

Imagine if the airport in question was DXB, and you have complicated taxi instructions - there are five EK 777s and a load of other traffic around - being told "behind Emirates triple seven" isnt really very helpful. This is where you need everyone to know exactly which holding point F11 is.

Now if you imagine there are two holds in use, and F11 has three EK 777s lined up - you would have to be more specific, but usually they say what number you are for departure - so they would say which EK777 to line up behind and I cant see anyone needing to be able to say "line up behind Emirates triple seven 300ER etc" - i doubt most ATC/Tower people could tell the difference from any significant distance and you would be very unlikely to need to I would think.

Its a bit like if you tell someone to hold at N11 at 9R at LHR "behind Speedbird A three nineteen" you've got the same problem and probably a lot more often - look up the taxiway and you'll see hundreds of BA A319s! You'll have to be more specific!

If you are curious about how to tell the difference between the types - I always look at the engines. If you see those monstrous GE90-115bs under the wings as opposed to the noticeably smaller Pratt 4090 and Trent 890 donks then you know its an 300ER. The wingtips arent usually that obvious if the aircraft is on the ground so the engines are your best bet. Theres usually a PW, GE90, or RR logo on the side (but not always) and the GE90 has a distinctive inlet on the outboard side of the cowling - hard to miss even from a distance.

If you look at NH -

300A - PW4090-powered.
200A - PW4080-powered.
300ER - GE90-powered.

If you look at JL -

300A - PW4090-powered.
200A - PW4080-powered.
300ER - GE90-powered.
200ER - GE90-powered.

If you look at SQ -

300A - Trent890-powered.
300ER - GE90-powered.
200ER - Trent890-powered.

If you look at EK -

300A - Trent890-powered.
200A - Trent877-powered.
300ER - GE90-powered.
200ER - Trent890-powered.
200F - GE90-powered.
200LR - GE90-powered.

If you look at PK -

200ER - GE90
300ER - GE90
200LR - GE90

[Edited 2007-05-09 17:33:15]


What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineDeltaGator From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 6341 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 14303 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 2):

Yowzers! Good description.

Quoting AirportGal (Thread starter):
How do air traffic control people at an airport visually differentiate between a 777-200 and a -200LR, or a 777-300 and a -300ER on the airfield?

Does it really matter? They wouldn't be able to make out those differences at night. Chris gives a good explanation though of the holding points on various taxiways. I never heard any controller say that someone needed to hold behind the 777-200ER but slip in line before that blasted 300ER came through. Everything I have ever heard was for the plane to hold or taxi or whatever behind the comapny jet if it was the same carrier or the name and model of someone else's plane.



"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 4, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 14303 times:

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 3):
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 2):


Yowzers! Good description

LOL I'm not bored at work or anything like that LOL  Wink



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineAirportGal From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 73 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 14271 times:

thx all for the input.....

the question has to do with lumping all 777's in the same category, and maybe forcing the smaller wingpsan models to taxi on a less then optimum route in order to maintain proper wingtip clearances on the airfield.


User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 14239 times:

controllers never give specific models of aicraft. For example ..... "Cleared to land runway 24R southwest XXXX, you are following a Boeing 747 on final". Never the specific type.


"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
User currently offlineWestWing From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2134 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 14178 times:

The difference between the wingspan of the (-200, -200ER, -300) and (-200LR, -300ER) is approx 4m (or 2m from centerline - which is what counts for clearance). Would ground controllers direct different models on different taxiways based on a 2m difference in clearance?


The best time to plant a tree is 40 years ago. The second best time is today.
User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 8, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 14019 times:

Quoting AirportGal (Reply 5):
maybe forcing the smaller wingpsan models to taxi on a less then optimum route in order to maintain proper wingtip clearances on the airfield.

Why would you want to do that? Surely it is the larger wingspan models which would have to take the less optimal routing?



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineAirportGal From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 73 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 13944 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 8):
Quoting AirportGal (Reply 5):
maybe forcing the smaller wingpsan models to taxi on a less then optimum route in order to maintain proper wingtip clearances on the airfield.

Why would you want to do that? Surely it is the larger wingspan models which would have to take the less optimal routing?

No airline wants ATC to do that, for obvious reasons. I had heard at one airport this was the way they expected to handle the 777's - just wanted to see if this was the case at other airports, and if not, how they were easily able to tell the difference.


User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 10, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 13918 times:

Quoting AirportGal (Reply 9):
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 8):
Quoting AirportGal (Reply 5):
maybe forcing the smaller wingpsan models to taxi on a less then optimum route in order to maintain proper wingtip clearances on the airfield.

Why would you want to do that? Surely it is the larger wingspan models which would have to take the less optimal routing?

No airline wants ATC to do that, for obvious reasons. I had heard at one airport this was the way they expected to handle the 777's - just wanted to see if this was the case at other airports, and if not, how they were easily able to tell the difference

Does the 4m extra make really that much difference?



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9002 posts, RR: 75
Reply 11, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 13825 times:

Quoting WestWing (Reply 7):
Would ground controllers direct different models on different taxiways based on a 2m difference in clearance?

Some taxiways do not have the wing tip clearance going past structures or the box of a particular aircraft stand, and they maybe limited to aircraft of a certain wingspan. Some taxiways and runways may not have the "pavement strength" to handle very high pressure tires.

The 5.3 m of additional length between the nose wheel and main gear limits the 300/300ER to take specific taxiways at airports (as the additional length increases the turn radius) that do not meet the normal standards for aircraft that long.

Hence airports are classified based on the maximum length and wingspan tire pressure they can handle without restriction, they may accept other aircraft, but would have specific procedures in place for them.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 12, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 13792 times:

I find that the easiest way to tell them apart are the engines. All 3 families of engines available on the 777 look distinctive. The PW4000s do not have the spiral painted on the screw of their fan (they have an offset straight line instead), the GE90 and RR Trent 800 both have the spiral on the screw, but are noticably different in proportion, with GE90 having a broader fan. In any event, the eccentric fan blades on the GE90-110/115b make the 77H/77L easy to discern when it is sitting still, the winglets give it away when in flight (or when viewed from above).

Quoting Zeke (Reply 11):

Some taxiways do not have the wing tip clearance going past structures or the box of a particular aircraft stand, and they maybe limited to aircraft of a certain wingspan. Some taxiways and runways may not have the "pavement strength" to handle very high pressure tires.

777-300ER fully loaded has the highest load per tire of any aircraft, if I am not mistaken. I believe that oddly enough, the 727-200 had the highest loading per tire previously (if you'll notice, 727 has only 2 tires on each of its main gear) i believe.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineAirportGal From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 73 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 13653 times:

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 12):
777-300ER fully loaded has the highest load per tire of any aircraft, if I am not mistaken

you are completely mistaken..... consider max ramp weight and number of main gear tires of twin aisle aircraft.... (777,000 lb, 12 wheels vs 840,400 lb, 12 wheels, for example)

Quoting Zeke (Reply 11):
Some taxiways do not have the wing tip clearance going past structures or the box of a particular aircraft stand, and they maybe limited to aircraft of a certain wingspan. Some taxiways and runways may not have the "pavement strength" to handle very high pressure tires.

yup - many Jepp charts clearly state no 747-400 / 777-300ER on certain taxiways, for example, based on wingspan - whereas 777-300 should not be restricted on these routes.

Just asking if there are airports out there making the extra effort to differentiate between the models - on behalf of the airlines who don't opperate the larger models.


User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 13617 times:

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 6):
controllers never give specific models of aicraft. For example ..... "Cleared to land runway 24R southwest XXXX, you are following a Boeing 747 on final". Never the specific type.

And, at least from my experience, they don't specify from ERJ's and CRJ's. It's just "Cherokee 6 Foxtrot Lima cleared to land runway 6, you are following an RJ on 3 mile final" or something of the sort... whether it's a Skywest CRJ-700 or an ExpressJet ERJ-135.


User currently offlineAirportGal From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 73 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 13553 times:

does Ground Control have information on the flight strip to determine whether the a/c they are "seeing" is a -200/-200ER or a -200LR?

User currently onlineOldAeroGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3500 posts, RR: 66
Reply 16, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 13517 times:

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 12):
777-300ER fully loaded has the highest load per tire of any aircraft, if I am not mistaken.



Quoting AirportGal (Reply 13):
you are completely mistaken..... consider max ramp weight and number of main gear tires of twin aisle aircraft.... (777,000 lb, 12 wheels vs 840,400 lb, 12 wheels, for example)

Airport Gal is correct in describing the difference between a 773ER (first set of numbers) and a A346IGW (second set of numbers).



Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6370 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 13501 times:

Quoting AirportGal (Reply 15):
does Ground Control have information on the flight strip to determine whether the a/c they are "seeing" is a -200/-200ER or a -200LR?

That's exactly what I was thinking, the type information is on the flight strip....

but when you get right down to it, other than the taxi routes mentioned above, since when does a controller need to know that, say, 747 #1 is a 747-100 and 747 #2 is a 747-400ER?  Wink



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
Top Of Page
Forum Index

Reply To This Topic 777-200/-300 And 777-200LR/-300ER
Username:
No username? Sign up now!
Password: 


Forgot Password? Be reminded.
Remember me on this computer (uses cookies)
  • Tech/Ops related posts only!
  • Not Tech/Ops related? Use the other forums
  • No adverts of any kind. This includes web pages.
  • No hostile language or criticizing of others.
  • Do not post copyright protected material.
  • Use relevant and describing topics.
  • Check if your post already been discussed.
  • Check your spelling!
  • DETAILED RULES
Add Images Add SmiliesPosting Help

Please check your spelling (press "Check Spelling" above)


Similar topics:More similar topics...
777-200/300 Gear Photos - Comparison posted Tue Jan 23 2007 00:38:25 by FlyLKU
Difference Between 747-200 Cockpit And 747-300? posted Tue Aug 16 2005 08:04:07 by Mozart
Physical Differences Between 737-300 And 737-700? posted Sun Feb 18 2007 17:34:48 by Gilesdavies
A-340-200/300-Type Reversers posted Fri Nov 10 2006 21:47:29 by Blackbird
Dimensions Of The A340-200/ 300 Nacelle posted Fri Apr 7 2006 14:23:04 by Archischmidt
The 747-300 And -400 posted Fri Jan 9 2004 08:55:06 by Tiger119
747-200/300's With The 10 Fuel Tank Option posted Wed Dec 4 2002 05:33:41 by Rohan737
777-200,300ER Vs 747-400 Engines posted Sun May 6 2001 21:45:57 by Frequentflyer5
747sp Vs 777-200 Cabin Floor Area posted Fri Apr 13 2007 23:23:15 by SCAT15F
777-300 Boxes On Top Of Fuselage posted Sun Nov 19 2006 17:10:06 by SABE
777-200/300 W, ER, L, ERL, ABC, XYZ? posted Sun Jan 15 2012 19:31:49 by VC10er
777-200/300 Gear Photos - Comparison posted Tue Jan 23 2007 00:38:25 by FlyLKU
777-200 Versus 777-200ER posted Thu Mar 10 2011 09:37:36 by AT
Difference Between 747-200 Cockpit And 747-300? posted Tue Aug 16 2005 08:04:07 by Mozart
A330/200/300 Nose Gear Axial Shear Pin Rating? posted Mon Dec 19 2011 23:31:11 by k8027aa
A340-300 And A340-600 Cargo Config posted Fri Aug 12 2011 07:06:34 by Blueeagle
B737-200, -200, -400 And -500: Wheel Assembly posted Wed Jul 6 2011 07:28:56 by BizFlyer
A340-200/300 Blue Hydraulic System posted Mon May 23 2011 09:25:30 by Speedbird741
Any Differences Between WN 737-300 And 737-700? posted Mon Sep 20 2010 20:25:20 by quickmover

Sponsor Message:
Printer friendly format