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A380 Spoilers Slightly Up To Let Flaps In  
User currently offlineBuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2828 posts, RR: 3
Posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 11608 times:

There was another thread A380 Wing In Action (by Cricket May 13 2007 in Civil Aviation) where the following video was posted:

http://video.google.com/googleplayer...wf?docId=-287991557796771878&hl=en

At the end of it, when the A380 has landed and the flaps are retracted, you can see that the spoilers go up very slightly in the flap retraction process, and then down again when the flaps are completely retracted. Does anybody know if this exists on other planes too? And mostly, if this happens also at flap retraction in climb, would this affect lift much?


I scratch my head, therefore I am.
36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 11611 times:

Very common with most aircraft. The area in the flap well is very tight with little room and every thing fits just right....and no.. no effect at all. A spoiler raise that little has no effect.

[Edited 2007-05-13 20:45:45]


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineBuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2828 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 11562 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 1):
Very common with most aircraft.

I've never noticed this... I'll have a closer look on my next flights.



I scratch my head, therefore I am.
User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3930 posts, RR: 34
Reply 3, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 11495 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 1):
Very common with most aircraft.

Which aircraft? I have never worked on an aircraft where the spoilers raise to let the flaps in. If the spoilers are slightly misrigged, they might be pushed up by the retracting flaps, but where is the input to raise them. Does the Flap control unit send a signal to the spoiler control units to raise the spoilers? Never heard of it. Well not on B744 B777 B767 B757 B737 A320 L1011.


User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3930 posts, RR: 34
Reply 4, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 11496 times:

Just watched the video. That is a programmed rise of the spoilers. Never seen it before.
Its a good idea because it allows for an airtight seal between the spoilers and the flaps in cruise.


User currently offlineBuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2828 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 11449 times:

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 4):
That is a programmed rise of the spoilers. Never seen it before.

Well at least i'm not the only one then  Smile



I scratch my head, therefore I am.
User currently offlineFLY2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 11353 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 1):
Very common with most aircraft.

I've never ever seen that in any aircraft I've flown on comercially and never heard of that being used in any other plane. Wouldn't be surprised if the A380 was the first airliner to have that feature.


User currently offlineBrettbrett21 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 436 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 11305 times:

Good idea, they are some pretty darn large single slotted flaps, unlike the 747's triple slotted ones which kinda' compress into each other, which need some room to move.


i'm so excited i wish i could wet my pants!
User currently offlineOldAeroGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3423 posts, RR: 67
Reply 8, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks ago) and read 11219 times:

It's a good indication that the flaps have a lot of Fowler motion, ie they move back a long ways before the trailing edge down rotation begins. In addition, this mechanization is probably also necessary as the A380 airfoil has a lot of aft camber, consistent with a supercritical section.

To the best of my knowledge, this is the first time this technique has been used on a large commercial aircraft.



Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5639 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks ago) and read 11204 times:

Common in most aircraft?
I have flown many, many types, most of them multiple times, and I have never seen this in my life.
In fact, take the Boeings... you can typically see scrape marks on 737 and 757 flaps, where they have interfered with the spoilers...


User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8643 posts, RR: 75
Reply 10, posted (6 years 11 months 2 weeks ago) and read 11187 times:

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 4):
Just watched the video. That is a programmed rise of the spoilers. Never seen it before.
Its a good idea because it allows for an airtight seal between the spoilers and the flaps in cruise.

I am thinking it maybe more for ice, if you retracted the flaps without raising the spoilers one could possibly damage the flaps, by raising them the damage is avoided.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31573 posts, RR: 57
Reply 11, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 10517 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 1):
Very common with most aircraft

Which other types.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineKalvado From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 485 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 10438 times:

Not exactly on topic - but I remember discussion about some panels on 757 wing lifting to let landing gear move.

User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31573 posts, RR: 57
Reply 13, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 10316 times:

Quoting Kalvado (Reply 12):
Not exactly on topic - but I remember discussion about some panels on 757 wing lifting to let landing gear move

Isn't that the Trunnion Fairing.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineOldAeroGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3423 posts, RR: 67
Reply 14, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 10298 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 13):
Quoting Kalvado (Reply 12):
Not exactly on topic - but I remember discussion about some panels on 757 wing lifting to let landing gear move

Isn't that the Trunnion Fairing.
regds
MEL

You're thinking of the 767.



Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
User currently offlineBuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2828 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 10271 times:

Quoting Kalvado (Reply 12):
but I remember discussion about some panels on 757 wing lifting to let landing gear move.

That's the 767 you're talking about:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Quinn Savit
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ivan Coninx - Brussels Aviation Photography



Hatches are visible just on the edge of the emergency markings.



I scratch my head, therefore I am.
User currently offlineS12PPL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 10196 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 1):
Very common with most aircraft.

I too have never seen this before, like many others have stated here. I've flown on many 737's, A320's, A319's, a 767-300...DC-10...I've never seen the flaps extend slightly to let the flaps retract, so I'm confused where you've seen this before...


User currently offlineWSOY From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 10177 times:

This patent application might be of interest, the patent assignee is the builder/designer of the A380 spoilers. Written in almost inpenetrable patentese, if might benefit from a translation into practical English by the experts presently on the forum.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP1527992.html

It's advisable to create an account on the site (free registration) in order to view the original application PDF document and the accompanying images.


User currently offlineMiamiair From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 10020 times:

I've never seen that on any of the Boeings. Most spoilers have a phenolic rub strip at the aft end for that very purpose.



Below is a 747 spoiler. The rub strip (-61) is replaced at every overhaul. It is easier to replace a rub strip than to add a monkey-motion system to not rub the spoiler on the upper skin of the flaps. KISS.


User currently offlineWSOY From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 10015 times:

So to elaborate on my earlier posting, it seems to me the reason for the slight deployment of the spoilers on the A380 is to allow the by Patria patented vortex generators on the underside of the spoiler to enhance the lift of the flaps.

User currently offlineDH106 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 623 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 9992 times:
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This feature may just be necessary, dependant on the shape of the portion of the flap that would normally sit under the spoiler when retracted together with the geometry of the flap extension path.


...I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tanhauser Gate....
User currently offlineSfomb67 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 417 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 9907 times:

I really think some of the DC-10's had this.....maybe just the -30's. Wasn't it called spoiler bias? I can't be the only one that remembers this!!


Not as easy as originally perceived
User currently offlineJetfixr757 From Jamaica, joined Jan 2006, 135 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 9808 times:

Great idea make something else to break that you cannot defer. Smart French engineering.
Jet


User currently offlineBuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2828 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 9732 times:

Quoting Jetfixr757 (Reply 22):
Great idea make something else to break that you cannot defer. Smart French engineering.
Jet

 Confused



I scratch my head, therefore I am.
User currently offlineJetMech From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 2637 posts, RR: 53
Reply 24, posted (6 years 11 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 9716 times:

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 18):
It is easier to replace a rub strip than to add a monkey-motion system to not rub the spoiler on the upper skin of the flaps. KISS

The again, "monkey motion" is not exactly hard to arrange for with a FBW flight control system. In a certain way, a FBW flight control system is more in line with the KISS principle than the hydro-mechanical flight control system of the 747.

Regards, JetMech



JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair.
25 2H4 : EMBQA, can you please elaborate? 2H4
26 Post contains images HAWK21M : I guess EMBQA has forgotten this thread & left the Important questioned unanswered regds MEL
27 Post contains links BuyantUkhaa : I had a look again after this thread was referred to in another, and yes, you're right, that's what it's called, the only reference I could find is h
28 Sfomb67 : Thanks BuyantUkhaa ! Just found your post concerning "spoiler bias" on the MD-11. I spent hours searching for this, but couldn't find anything about i
29 Klaus : Indeed. The spoilers have position sensors anway as far as I'm aware (to allow precisely servo-controlled use as flight spoilers), so this is entirel
30 Mcdu : Does anyone know if the spoilers make the same motion of raising and then lowering after T/O or Go Around? Would be interested to see if there is any
31 BuyantUkhaa : I doubt it, it's a tiny deflection. In a two-engine out config you're not going to climb anyway...
32 Sfomb67 : I'm sure they do. As I remember, the DC10-30 spoilers all lifted up about 3/4" just as the flaps started to extend from full up, and lifted the same
33 Mcdu : You better be able to climb on Two as that is the certification standard. It has to be able to suffer a double engine loss, make it to 35' by the end
34 TristarSteve : Hmmm Is this something new? All aircraft must be able to handle a single engine loss after V1 and climb away but when did a double engine loss come i
35 Mcdu : The certification standards vary depending on the number of installed power plants. The Twin is a single engine loss at V1. The quad a two engine los
36 Tdscanuck : Do you know where that is in the FAR's? I've never heard of it before (for quads) and it doesn't really make sense. An engine on a quad is no more or
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