Sponsor Message:
Aviation Technical / Operations Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Accidents On First Flight?  
User currently offlineGoingAround From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 127 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 10 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4049 times:

Heya,

This is my first post here, but I've been visiting the site for a few years now, only just ponied up the cash and joined!  Big grin

I have wondered this for a few years;

Has there ever been a case where a pilot on their first commercial flight has had a serious emergency? Are there any famous incidents?

One of my Dad's friends who flies A320's for BA told me that he had an engine failure while in his first month of work at BA. He made it sound pretty scary for somebody with relatively little experience.

Any thoughts on this?

Thanks,
Alex

32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4252 posts, RR: 29
Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3859 times:

If memory serves me correct, the 737 US Air flight that went off the end of the runway and into the water at LGA back in 1989 was being flown by the first officer. I seem to remember that he had only about 20 hours in type and it was his very first flight where he was actually the flying pilot. His famous last words (he survived the crash as did all but 2 passengers) just before take-off power was applied was "Here goes nothing", or something to that affect, which showed his lack of confidence. I don't remember the other specifics of the crash, other than the rudder was incorrectly positioned during take-off causing the plane to yaw and the captain took over control too late to effectively and safely abort the take-off run.

I don't know if the above incident falls into the category you're looking for, but it sure comes close! And I'm sure there's plenty of other examples out there.



I'm not a racist...I hate Biden, too.
User currently offlinePilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3139 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3819 times:

The sim isn't the same as the airplane, but prior to starting IOE you have hours of doing nothing but emergency situations in the sim.


DMI
User currently offlineFLY2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3770 times:

I bet you'll find more of these incidents to occur in the GA sector rather than the commercial sector.

I've heard plenty of solo first flights going bad.


User currently offlineGoingAround From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 127 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3704 times:

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 1):

I suppose I just think that it's interesting that actually there are not very many accidents that you hear of that involve very in-experienced pilots. But thank-you for that, it was the kind of incident I was wondering about, does anyone know what happened to the F/O and his flying career after the incident?

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 2):

That's what my Dad's friend said, that it's a frightening experience but training just kicks in after a while. He also said that it didn't really hit him until he was on the ground again, but I don't think that is really something I would want to experience during my first month of work as a pilot  Yeah sure

Thanks for the answers,

Alex


User currently offlineAirTran737 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3690 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3682 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting GoingAround (Thread starter):
Has there ever been a case where a pilot on their first commercial flight has had a serious emergency? Are there any famous incidents?

AirTran/ValuJet had on in ATL a long time ago, it was the F/O's first flight of IOE and they had smoke in the cockpit. It's quite a harrowing tale to hear in person. When the F/O was debriefed by the NTSB they asked him how much time he had in the DC-9 he replied "about 9 minutes" they thought that he was joking.



Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
User currently offlinePilotaydin From Turkey, joined Sep 2004, 2536 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3668 times:

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 2):
The sim isn't the same as the airplane

well yes and no, the sim is pretty accurate if you get your mindset right, a lot of people feel "safe" in the sim, but if you go in knowing and thinking it's the real plane and you CAN NOT crash, it makes it way too real...

it basically is the same thing otherwise you wouldn't be able to fly with real passengers after a type rating...



The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
User currently offlineFlyf15 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3652 times:

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 6):
well yes and no, the sim is pretty accurate if you get your mindset right, a lot of people feel "safe" in the sim, but if you go in knowing and thinking it's the real plane and you CAN NOT crash, it makes it way too real...

Yep, I have had more than a few times where I've come out of the sim nervously shaken. I had recently where I was doing a perfectly normal takeoff on a nice day in there... As I'm accelerating through about 110kts, a 767 crosses the runway right in front of me. Slammed right into it. Had to spend a few moments relaxing before I could continue after that one.

The sim is definitely very real, but it doesn't feel like the exact airplane after you've flown the real thing. The sim doesn't have the erractic turbulence on approach, the sim doesn't have ATC issues, the sim actually weighs and is balanced as its set up to be (in real life, everything is an estimate), etc. But it is a amazingly good training tool.

Honestly, for your first flight in the plane after the sim... you know how to handle emergencies like the back of your hand. Probably better than you will at any other time until you get back in the sim again. Its the day to day stuff that'll get you.... CRM stuff, passenger issues, dealing with weather and dispatch and such, etc. Thats the hard part.


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3592 times:

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 1):
His famous last words (he survived the crash as did all but 2 passengers) just before take-off power was applied was "Here goes nothing", or something to that affect, which showed his lack of confidence

Well, even Han Solo said that. But I do agree.  Wink

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 1):
I don't remember the other specifics of the crash, other than the rudder was incorrectly positioned during take-off causing the plane to yaw and the captain took over control too late to effectively and safely abort the take-off run.

They made a number of errors, including positioning themselves behind another taxiing aircraft to get some hot air blown over the wings. This procedure is apparently specifically verboten.

Quoting GoingAround (Reply 4):
I suppose I just think that it's interesting that actually there are not very many accidents that you hear of that involve very in-experienced pilots.

I would think on the first flight you bring your best game. It's when you start relaxing that accidents happen. Then again, first flights may be a bit nerve wracking, meaning if you do overlook something, it's probably going to be major.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineBAe146QT From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2006, 996 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3472 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 8):
Then again, first flights may be a bit nerve wracking,

Indeed. Not so very long ago, a friend of mine lost the engine on climb-out... on his first solo. It just seized.



Todos mis dominós son totalmente pegajosos
User currently offlineGoingAround From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 127 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3459 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 8):

I would think on the first flight you bring your best game. It's when you start relaxing that accidents happen. Then again, first flights may be a bit nerve wracking, meaning if you do overlook something, it's probably going to be major.

I have always been curious at which point in a pilots career they could be considered the 'safest'. Is it near the beginning when they rely largely on procedure and training, or when experience starts to kick in?

I know this sounds naive, but from the episodes of Air Crash Investigation I have watched, many of the pilots responsible for the crashes are highly experienced, many of whom are training captains etc. (The 2 main ones I can remember, the PanAm KLM crash in Tenerife, and if my memory serves me correctly, the 757 crash in Cali, Columbia)

Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 9):
Indeed. Not so very long ago, a friend of mine lost the engine on climb-out... on his first solo. It just seized.

This is a good example of what I mean, would a student Pilot be better in a situation such as this, or a pilot who has been flying for 20 years?

Thanks,

Alex


User currently offlineRyanair737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3452 times:

Quoting GoingAround (Reply 10):
This is a good example of what I mean, would a student Pilot be better in a situation such as this, or a pilot who has been flying for 20 years?

It depends, just because you may have been flying for 20 years or 50 years, it does not mean that you’re anymore of a better pilot (flying wise) as someone who may have only been flying for 1 or 2 years. Experience is a fantastic thing, and of course that has an advantage but experience doesn't always equal a great pilot who can handle any given situation.

737


User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4252 posts, RR: 29
Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3368 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 8):
I don't remember the other specifics of the crash, other than the rudder was incorrectly positioned during take-off causing the plane to yaw and the captain took over control too late to effectively and safely abort the take-off run.

They made a number of errors, including positioning themselves behind another taxiing aircraft to get some hot air blown over the wings. This procedure is apparently specifically verboten.

I finally found the NTSB report on this crash. Makes for some very interesting -- and shocking -- reading.

http://www.airdisaster.com/reports/ntsb/AAR90-03.pdf

Quoting GoingAround (Reply 4):
But thank-you for that, it was the kind of incident I was wondering about, does anyone know what happened to the F/O and his flying career after the incident?

Don't know about the F/O, but from reading this report, I can almost guarantee the pilot never got paid again for flying.



I'm not a racist...I hate Biden, too.
User currently offlineYYZYYT From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 924 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3100 times:

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 7):
The sim is definitely very real, but it doesn't feel like the exact airplane after you've flown the real thing. The sim doesn't have the erractic turbulence on approach, the sim doesn't have ATC issues, the sim actually weighs and is balanced as its set up to be (in real life, everything is an estimate), etc. But it is a amazingly good training tool.

Honestly, for your first flight in the plane after the sim... you know how to handle emergencies like the back of your hand. Probably better than you will at any other time until you get back in the sim again. Its the day to day stuff that'll get you.... CRM stuff, passenger issues, dealing with weather and dispatch and such, etc. Thats the hard part.

Further commentary on the role that experience plays (thus relevant to this thread) can be found in.. er, this other thread (in case you haven't found it):

When Only The Captain Can Land (by Treeny May 29 2007 in Tech Ops)

I for one believe that experience is very important, and that simulator training just can't replace real experience. Especially in a difficult or dangerous situation, requiring a delicate touch, good intuition and / or the ability to make split second decision......*


YYZYYT

*For example, look what happened to these guys:

"Ripley: How many drops is this for you, Lieutenant?
Gorman: Thirty eight... simulated.
Vasquez: How many *combat* drops?
Gorman: Uh, two. Including this one.
Drake: Shit.
Hudson: Oh, man... "


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3097 times:

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 13):

"Ripley: How many drops is this for you, Lieutenant?
Gorman: Thirty eight... simulated.
Vasquez: How many *combat* drops?
Gorman: Uh, two. Including this one.
Drake: Shit.
Hudson: Oh, man... "

Hehe. While it made for a good plot point, I find it hard to believe that such an incompetent squad of marines would ever be fielded. Gorman is not the only weak spot. But maybe I'm optimistic.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineYYZYYT From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 924 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3090 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 14):
Hehe. While it made for a good plot point, I find it hard to believe that such an incompetent squad of marines would ever be fielded. Gorman is not the only weak spot. But maybe I'm optimistic.

I almost added to my prior post, "this is for Stalionblue"


User currently offlineBAe146QT From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2006, 996 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3085 times:

I don't think they were incompetent. I believe that they were seasoned professionals who, in that instance, were lacking in confident leadership. In turn, that naive leader was hamstrung by the Company's own agenda and demands - both of which were incompatible with the squad's success in their objectives - not to mention their survival.

And, as WAAAY off-topic as this may be, I believe that to be a problem inherent in so many areas. Perhaps there are those here that can think of aviation examples.

***COUGH*** BSAA ***COUGH***



Todos mis dominós son totalmente pegajosos
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3068 times:

Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 16):
I don't think they were incompetent. I believe that they were seasoned professionals who, in that instance, were lacking in confident leadership. In turn, that naive leader was hamstrung by the Company's own agenda and demands - both of which were incompatible with the squad's success in their objectives - not to mention their survival.

I'll concede that. But maybe it's their lack of discipline that I found disturbing. This is not really in keeping with Marines. I would think SEALs or SAS squads on detached duty could be more like that. However, SEALs or SAS would not accept such leadership. There is no way Gorman would have been appointed, unless as you say the Company is calling the shots.

Waaaaay over analyzing.

Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 16):

And, as WAAAY off-topic as this may be, I believe that to be a problem inherent in so many areas. Perhaps there are those here that can think of aviation examples.

Like the myriad maintenance issues created by management that has no understanding of maintenance, but a perfect understanding of spreadsheets and counting beans?  Wink

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 15):
I almost added to my prior post, "this is for Stalionblue"

I would say "get a life" if I had one myself. Big grin



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineKBFIspotter From United States of America, joined May 2005, 729 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3046 times:

Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 9):
a friend of mine lost the engine on climb-out... on his first solo. It just seized

While not on my first flight, I lost my engine on my long distance solo x-country flight. I was on my return leg and had just finished climbing to 6000 ft when the engine just died.... Made an acceptable dead stick landing into Ockechobee Fl.

Kris



Proud to be an A&P!!!
User currently offlineTrijetsRMissed From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2230 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2983 times:

Quoting GoingAround (Thread starter):
Has there ever been a case where a pilot on their first commercial flight has had a serious emergency? Are there any famous incidents?

While not the first flight, the British Midland 734 crash in 1989 was the result of the crew having very little experience on the type. At the time, the pilots were not required to through training to fly the new 734 if they had already flown older, previous models. As a result, they misinterpreted the glass cockpit displays following the engine failure and shut off the wrong engine.



There's nothing quite like a tri-jet.
User currently offlineBAe146QT From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2006, 996 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2923 times:

Quoting Starlionblue:
Waaaaay over analyzing.

Indeed. We have definitely reached the point where Mrs. BAe146QT would say, "It's only a film".

Quoting KBFIspotter:
Made an acceptable dead stick landing into Ockechobee Fl.

Not the lake, I hope?

Quoting TrijetsRMissed:
As a result, they misinterpreted the glass cockpit displays following the engine failure and shut off the wrong engine.

Unless I am remembering this incorrectly, part of the problem was that they were very familiar with the 732. They detected smoke in the cockpit AC, and since that was fed from the opposite engine on the 732 to the 734, it reinforced their belief that the wrong engine was failing.

Design of the displays was a factor, as much as familiarity. I don't remember who it was, but someone here complained about them recently.



Todos mis dominós son totalmente pegajosos
User currently offlineGoingAround From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 127 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2887 times:

Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 20):
Unless I am remembering this incorrectly, part of the problem was that they were very familiar with the 732. They detected smoke in the cockpit AC, and since that was fed from the opposite engine on the 732 to the 734, it reinforced their belief that the wrong engine was failing.

Was it not that on the 732 the A/C was fed from the left engine, however on the 734, it was fed from both? And as there was smoke coming through the A/C into the cabin they determined that it must be the left.

Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 20):

Design of the displays was a factor, as much as familiarity. I don't remember who it was, but someone here complained about them recently.

Was it not the size of the vibration gauge? I remember hearing that it was the size of a 20p piece, and was not installed in the 732, and so the crew did not use it.

I didn't think of that example, thanks  Smile

Is it true that a passenger heard the announcement about them shutting off the left engine, and told the stewardess that the flames were coming from the right, she told him not to worry and that the crew knew what they were doing?!

All the best,
Alex


User currently offlineBAe146QT From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2006, 996 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2879 times:

Quoting GoingAround:
Was it not that on the 732 the A/C was fed from the left engine, however on the 734, it was fed from both? And as there was smoke coming through the A/C into the cabin they determined that it must be the left.

My memory is all rusty - I recalled that it was fed from from the left on the 732 (as you say) but from the right on the 734. If MEL reads this he would probably be well-placed to set us right.

Quoting GoingAround:
Was it not the size of the vibration gauge? I remember hearing that it was the size of a 20p piece,

I've never been on the flight deck of a 734, but from pictures (and comments I have read here) it would appear that the position isn't ideal, and the LEDs aren't very bright. The CAA requested a redesign after this accident but I seem to recall that it wasn't done.

Quoting GoingAround:
Is it true that a passenger heard the announcement about them shutting off the left engine, and told the stewardess that the flames were coming from the right, she told him not to worry and that the crew knew what they were doing?!

Not exactly.

After the smoke was detected on the flight deck, the captain called the FAs and asked whether they had seen smoke too. They said that they had, so it was probably obvious to them that the captain knew something was wrong. Consequently, although they had seen flames coming from the rear of the left engine, but did not communicate the fact to the flight crew. I wasn't there, but I guess they didn't feel they had to.

When the captain spoke over the PA to say that they were shutting down the right engine, the FAs apparently did not hear him say "right". Some of the passengers did, but they didn't say anything to the FAs.



Todos mis dominós son totalmente pegajosos
User currently offlineFlyingColours From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2315 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2874 times:

Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 22):
My memory is all rusty - I recalled that it was fed from from the left on the 732 (as you say) but from the right on the 734. If MEL reads this he would probably be well-placed to set us right.

I believe it was the 737-300 that they were familiar on first, I don't have the AAIB report on me right now. Yup MEL will know the answer to the more important question of which engine feeds the air con  Smile

Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 22):
I've never been on the flight deck of a 734, but from pictures (and comments I have read here) it would appear that the position isn't ideal, and the LEDs aren't very bright. The CAA requested a redesign after this accident but I seem to recall that it wasn't done.

I think the report said that the EFIS? gauges were all white with no colours to indicate when the reading has gone into the 'red', I think all the gauges were white on the early models.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Florian Joachim



The Vibration indicators are found on the right EFIS panel, just above the Hydraulic pressure indicators near the bottom. The gauge is still white, however the N1, EGT and N2 indicators are coloured.

Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 22):
When the captain spoke over the PA to say that they were shutting down the right engine, the FAs apparently did not hear him say "right". Some of the passengers did, but they didn't say anything to the FAs.

I think one of the issues here is that when the captain began his announcment he started with "Ladies and Gentlemen...." at which point most crew will redirect their attention to what they were doing. Now it is standard practice over here to begin emergency PA's with "Attention Attention, This is an emergency announcment", that way we know its not just a PA about what country we are overflying.

Phil
FlyingColours



Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
User currently offlineBAe146QT From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2006, 996 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2872 times:

Quoting Me:
My memory is all rusty - I recalled that it was fed from from the left on the 732 (as you say) but from the right on the 734. If MEL reads this he would probably be well-placed to set us right.

Found the report...

Begin Fair Use:

"After the accident, he stated that he had judged the No2 engine to be at fault from his knowledge of aircraft air conditioning systems. His resoning was that he thought the smoke and fumes were coming from the passenger cabin; the air for the cabin came mostly from the No2 engine; therefore the trouble lay in that engine.
Whilst this reasoning might have applied fairly well to other aircraft he had flown, it was flawed in this case because some of the air conditioning air for the passenger cabin of the Boeing 737-400 comes from the No 1 engine."

/Fair Use

The report goes on to say that his assertion may have been spurious because of some odd timings, but the point is that you were right; some comes from No1, some from No2.



Todos mis dominós son totalmente pegajosos
25 DrDeke : So how'd that turn out? Did he make it back to the airport, or land elsewhere?
26 Qantas744ER : Not really an accident but the first AF 777-300ER on delivery flight from PAE to CDG suffered an engine n.2 failure and carried on to CDG Leo
27 BAe146QT : He ended up in a fallow field, across the road from the aerodrome. Last I spoke to him, they still had no idea why the engine just seized up like tha
28 BAe146QT : That's understandable, in it's way. I imagine if you hear enough "Ladies and Gentlemen...." announcements, you would tend to tune them out. Interesti
29 Post contains images FlyingColours : Yup, I believe the outcome would have been different and they made it down ok. Weather it's because the announcement would have been changed or becau
30 BAe146QT : Phil, maybe it's been done before, (or maybe it was elsewhere) but I think that this warrants a different thread, as I do not want to take over this
31 Post contains images Starlionblue : To add to the confusion - The actual "needles" on the gauges are tiny little things. - The engine instrument layout is (in columns from left to right
32 BAe146QT : Muphy is only Finagle's prophet. He's the harbinger of disaster. Finagle was in the background, holding a pair of worn-out crankshaft bearing shells
Top Of Page
Forum Index

Reply To This Topic Accidents On First Flight?
Username:
No username? Sign up now!
Password: 


Forgot Password? Be reminded.
Remember me on this computer (uses cookies)
  • Tech/Ops related posts only!
  • Not Tech/Ops related? Use the other forums
  • No adverts of any kind. This includes web pages.
  • No hostile language or criticizing of others.
  • Do not post copyright protected material.
  • Use relevant and describing topics.
  • Check if your post already been discussed.
  • Check your spelling!
  • DETAILED RULES
Add Images Add SmiliesPosting Help

Please check your spelling (press "Check Spelling" above)


Similar topics:More similar topics...
Taxiing, Takeoff, Landing On First Student Flight posted Tue May 21 2002 05:48:50 by Shaun3000
Flight Bag On Commercial Flight? posted Thu May 10 2007 04:25:51 by United757
Noise On The Flight Deck posted Tue Mar 29 2005 05:09:30 by Sleekjet
Intermediate Stops On IFR Flight Plans posted Thu Mar 18 2004 05:27:28 by Flyf15
Pan Am First Pass Flight Over North Pole posted Sat Apr 14 2007 18:02:33 by MrFord
Unusual Buzzing Noise On DC9-50 Flight - Cause? posted Mon Feb 26 2007 23:50:54 by MikeM2648
Flight Crew Rotation On 17-hour Flight posted Mon Jan 1 2007 22:34:28 by Jawed
Captain Ill On Flight Deck - Ryanair Story posted Mon Sep 25 2006 21:48:40 by JulianUK
Reverse Thrust In-Flight On Dash 8 posted Wed Aug 2 2006 00:17:32 by Dogfighter2111
FMC Flight Management Computer Simulators On Web? posted Thu May 25 2006 19:15:47 by JulianUK

Sponsor Message:
Printer friendly format