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DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing  
User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 17456 times:

How big are the DC-8's and the DC-10's windows in terms of width and height? Also what are the window-spacing on these two aircraft? Additionally, while I know the B-707's windows are 9" x 12.5" inches, what is the spacing between the two windows on the 707?


BTW:While somewhat off topic, I do wonder: Did Douglas's use of large windows on the DC-8 influence the Lear 23/24B's large windows? Or were they totally unrelated?

Andrea Kent

74 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineN8076U From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 425 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 17474 times:

The DC-8 windows are spaced 40 inches on center, and was designed that way to match up with the 40" seat pitch.

Chris



Don't blame me, I don't work here...
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25372 posts, RR: 22
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 17436 times:

Quoting N8076U (Reply 1):
The DC-8 windows are spaced 40 inches on center, and was designed that way to match up with the 40" seat pitch.

The windows matched up with the 40 inch pitch in first class, but it also meant that the DC-8 windows didn't line up with many economy class rows where the usual standard then was 34 inches, at least on international flights. However the DC-8's windows were large enough that you usually had at least a sliver of a window.

Boeing's much smaller windows adopted on the 707 and subsequent models meant that every row had at least one window. Douglas adopted that strategy on the DC-9 and subsequent models. The DC-10 and MD-11 had larger windows than on the Boeing types but they were still much more closely spaced than on the DC-8 so all seats had a window.

The Douglas decision to use the large windows on the DC-8 matching the usual first class seat pitch then was no doubt influenced by the fact that first class was still the primary product in the mid-50s when the DC-8 was designed, and economy class, where offered, usually occupied the smallest proportion of the cabin. However not long after the 707 and DC-8 went into service, the situation quickly started to reverse itself and as demand for air travel increased due to the lower fares made possible by the jets, Y class cabins started growing and F class shrinking. Had Douglas foreseen those market changes, they probably would have used smaller, closely-spaced windows as they did on the DC-9.

The big DC-8 windows certainly permitted an excellent view as long as there was one adjacent to your seat.


User currently offlineN8076U From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 425 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 17391 times:

Found some cabin window info in one of my manuals. DC-8 cabin windows are 17 1/8" wide x 20 5/8" high. The emergency exit hatch windows are a bit smaller, at 16 1/8" wide x 20 5/8" high.


Don't blame me, I don't work here...
User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6914 posts, RR: 46
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 17361 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 2):
The big DC-8 windows certainly permitted an excellent view as long as there was one adjacent to your seat.

I flew to Europe in 1989 in a DC-8, and on the return flight I was stuck in a "window" seat without a window. Didn't like it at all. I much prefer smaller windows that I can see out of.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 17353 times:

Was there any evidence to suggest that Economy Class would become far more popular with the jets?

Andrea K


User currently offlineStarglider From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 678 posts, RR: 44
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 17330 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 2):
The Douglas decision to use the large windows on the DC-8 matching the usual first class seat pitch then was no doubt influenced by the fact that first class was still the primary product in the mid-50s when the DC-8 was designed, and economy class, where offered, usually occupied the smallest proportion of the cabin.

When the DC-8-63 entered service in the late 60s, window spacing remained the same. No effort was made to alter the 40 inch spacing for obvious reasons due to frame spacing in the fuselage structure. However, there were operators (CP Air for example) which had an extra window between 2 frames which normally had no window, placing it very close to the window in front of it. Apparently structural integrity was not an issue with 2 windows so close to each other. Does anyone know what the function of this extra window was at this particular position? See below:

Big version: Width: 600 Height: 447 File size: 57kb


Big version: Width: 1024 Height: 598 File size: 68kb



Regards,
Starglider


User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 17301 times:

Regarding the DC-8... was there any evidence to suggest to Douglas Aircraft Corporation that Coach-Seating would become a much larger portion of aircraft seating?

I'm just wondering because Boeing had smaller windows spaced closer together, almost as if they saw it coming. Was this because Boeing had a few more years to develop the 707 than Douglas did the DC-8? Or was this no factor?

Regarding the double-window on the back of the CPAir DC-8-63's, I have no idea why it was placed there.

Andrea K


User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 17268 times:

Okay, how about the DC-10? What's it's window size and spacing? I've flown on DC-10's -- their windows are almost certainly larger-- which to my knowledge is one of the DC-10's redeeming characteristics.

Regarding the DC-8 though... does anybody have any answers to my last question?

Andrea K


User currently offlineN8076U From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 425 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks ago) and read 17190 times:

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 7):
Regarding the DC-8... was there any evidence to suggest to Douglas Aircraft Corporation that Coach-Seating would become a much larger portion of aircraft seating?

I found some more early DC-8 information from a 1958 study guide. It states that the cabin windows were sized as such because "this arrangement provides good forward, aft, upward and downward passenger vision".

It further states that there is one window spaced 40" on center adjacent to each outboard seat. As of June 1958, the aircraft was to have both a first-class and a tourist class all at the same pitch, the difference being a wider four-abreast seating in first, versus the six-abreast in tourist. It was also to have a lounge area with seating for eight. The seat tracks did allow for adjustments in one-inch increments.

Starglider, a lot of UA's DC-8-61s had that "double window" arrangement as well in the left rear. Originally, between the last row of coach seats on the left side and the left rear entry door was a "mini-lounge". This consisted of a special double seat, which I suppose HAD to be a window seat, so one could relax and enjoy the view while drinking a scotch on the rocks. On the right side directly across from that lounge was a galley, so no extra window there.

I suppose Douglas could have put in some more windows here and there, but the extra structure and the windows themselves are very heavy. Just the window assembly alone (outer and inner pane) is 15 pounds, as the outer pane is 17/32" thick and the inner pane is 7/16" thick.

Chris



Don't blame me, I don't work here...
User currently offlineStarglider From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 678 posts, RR: 44
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 17154 times:

Quoting N8076U (Reply 9):
a lot of UA's DC-8-61s had that "double window" arrangement as well in the left rear. Originally, between the last row of coach seats on the left side and the left rear entry door was a "mini-lounge". This consisted of a special double seat, which I suppose HAD to be a window seat, so one could relax and enjoy the view while drinking a scotch on the rocks.

N8076U, thanks for the info. Recalling my experience, traveling on the -63 in the back, that scotch would be "shaken and stirred" when sitting in such a mini-lounge with the "snaking motion" sensed in the rear of the plane.

By the way, when flying on the -63, which was in a charter configuration, i remember that where ever i was seated, in front, over, or behind the wing ,there was always a reasonable to good view through those large windows.

Starglider


User currently offlineStarglider From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 678 posts, RR: 44
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 17154 times:

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 8):
Okay, how about the DC-10? What's it's window size and spacing? I've flown on DC-10's -- their windows are almost certainly larger-- which to my knowledge is one of the DC-10's redeeming characteristics.

Fuselage frame spacing should be similar to the MD11(20 inches), so the DC-10 window spacing is 20 inches. I flew on the DC-10 many times and i don't recall them as being any larger than on the B747 which incidentally also has a 20 inch frame/window spacing.


Starglider


User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4994 posts, RR: 43
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 17134 times:

I looked at a Trans-Canada Air Lines DC-8-40 Operating Manual of 1961 and it showed the cabin layout as originally envisioned by Douglas. That is the whole aircraft had 40" pitch, 4 abreast in First Class and 6 abreast in Economy.

Also, just for information, the First Class cabin took up almost half of the aircraft, with the bar/lounge in the front two lavs, galley/closets, then 7 rows of seats with the last row having the forward overwing exit. Economy of course, took up the rest of the aircraft. There was no Economy lounge, but there were four lavs in the rear, as opposed to only three as had most early carriers.

In 1963, First Class was reduced from 28 to 16 on all aircraft with the introduction of the DC-8-54JTs. Seat pitch in Economy was reduced at that time to the (then) horrific 36"! Seat pitch in Economy in the Air Canada DC-8s (DC-8-40/50/60) stayed at 36" until the DC-8-63s were re-equipped with "widebody" interiors in 1980. At that time, the seat pitch was reduced to 34".

I used to look at the DC-8 manuals to see which rows had windows, partial windows, or NO windows, and kept this list with me when choosing a seat from the big seat charts with stickers at the gates. When you are an airline geek at 10 years old, you do stuff like this!  Smile



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25372 posts, RR: 22
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 17045 times:

Quoting N8076U (Reply 9):
Starglider, a lot of UA's DC-8-61s had that "double window" arrangement as well in the left rear.

The "double window" is on both sides on many DC-8-61s and -63s as you'll see if you check some A.net photos. The -60 series DC-8s had several optional cabin layouts with different galley and emergency exit locations, and with or without the forward lounge.

[Edited 2007-07-08 01:10:00]

User currently offlineN8076U From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 425 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 17021 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 13):
The "double window" is on both sides on many DC-8-61s and -63s as you'll see if you check some A.net photos. The -60 series DC-8s had several optional cabin layouts with different galley and emergency exit locations, and with or without the forward lounge.

I won't argue with that. Of course, there were many, many variations. Even the instrument layout in the cockpit was custom-tailored to the customer's specifications. Douglas was infamous for this in regards to the DC-8, and the inside joke was that no two DC-8s are alike.

However, the specific configuration I mentioned...

Quoting N8076U (Reply 9):
Starglider, a lot of UA's DC-8-61s had that "double window" arrangement as well in the left rear. Originally, between the last row of coach seats on the left side and the left rear entry door was a "mini-lounge". This consisted of a special double seat, which I suppose HAD to be a window seat, so one could relax and enjoy the view while drinking a scotch on the rocks. On the right side directly across from that lounge was a galley, so no extra window there.

...was in reference to the UA DC-8-61s, not all DC-8s. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. I thought it would make more sense and would be more interesting to use a real-world example to explain the purpose of those extra windows.

Interestingly, it appears (as far as I can determine from the A.net database) that all of the UA DC-8-61s and their -62s had that extra window on the left rear. However, there is only one UA DC-8-61 that you will find in the DB with the extra window on the right side, and that was an ex-JAL bird, N8177U, which wasn't originally ordered to United's specs.

Chris



Don't blame me, I don't work here...
User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 16992 times:

Why did Douglas (and Convair actually) plan to use the same seat pitch for FC and Coach? Why didn't they just do 40" for FC and 34" - 36" for Coach? Was this learned by experience, or was there another reason Douglas made this choice? Also, what did Boeing use for coach seat-pitch?

Also, why did (McDonnell) Douglas use smaller windows on the DC-10 than the DC-8, I mean from my experience flying on DC-10's they definetly provided adequate visibility. Thank you (Starglider) for providing me with the 20-inch spacing figure for the DC-10.

Does anybody know how large the DC-10's pax windows are? They are larger than the 707/720/CV-880/727/737/747/757/767 windows, although rounder at the edges...

Andrea K


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25372 posts, RR: 22
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 16981 times:

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 15):
Also, why did (McDonnell) Douglas use smaller windows on the DC-10 than the DC-8

I'm sure it was to avoid the problem that occurred on the DC-8 where the widely-spaced large windows resulted in some seats in Y class not having a window at the typical 34 inch seat pitch that became the standard for most carriers. If the larger DC-8 windows had been moved closer together it probably would have created certain structural issues.


User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 16980 times:

When did 36" inch and 34" pitches become standard?

Andrea K


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25372 posts, RR: 22
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 16921 times:

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 17):
When did 36" inch and 34" pitches become standard?

I don't think 36" was ever a standard, but the 34" maximum seat pitch was the IATA standard (agreed by member airlines) for economy class on international routes for many years. I'm guessing it probably came into effect in the early 1960s, soon after the 707 and DC-8 went into service. If memory correct, 42" was the maximum pitch then for first class, and of course business class didn't exist until the late 1970s, and when first introduced it was usually only 3 or 4" more than economy class.

Now there are no standards for such things and carriers do whatever they want, but in economy class the trend has of course been to reduced seat pitches. Carriers with 34" pitch in Y class are very rare now.


User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 16915 times:

Why didn't Boeing use huge widely spaced windows then? Didn't they use 40-inch pitches as standards?

Andrea K


User currently offlineStarglider From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 678 posts, RR: 44
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 16879 times:

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 15):
Does anybody know how large the DC-10's pax windows are?

DC-10 (and MD11) pax. window size:

Pax. window panes are 16.9 inch high and 11 inch wide. The pane fits over/into the window frame (the frame you see through from the inside) which is 15.7 inch high and 9.8 inch wide. So actual window size is 15.7 in. by 9.8 in.


Starglider


User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 16846 times:

Starglider,

Why didn't they just make them 15.7" x 9.8" on the inside and outside?


Andrea K


User currently offlineStarglider From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 678 posts, RR: 44
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 16801 times:

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 21):
Why didn't they just make them 15.7" x 9.8" on the inside and outside?

The window panes (outer and inner pane are one assembly) are larger than the window frame which is part of the fuselage structure. The overlap is to secure the panes into the smaller window frame with a seal between pane and frame.

See illustration (speaks more than a thousand words):



Big version: Width: 600 Height: 573 File size: 36kb




Starglider


User currently offlineBlackbird From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 16776 times:

So it's a triple paned window? Why is that necessary?

Andrea K


User currently offlineStarglider From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 678 posts, RR: 44
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 16769 times:

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 23):
So it's a triple paned window? Why is that necessary?

The outer pane takes the pressure load.

The inner pane is designed to withstand the pressure load if the outer pane fails, thus, a fail safe construction.

The anacoustical pane has no pressure bearing function but is there for aesthetic reasons, to reduce noise, and to protect the pressure bearing outer and inner panes from passengers that can't keep their hands off things that need to be protected.

Starglider.


25 Blackbird : Starglider, Is this how most airplane's windows are set up? Also... how come even though IATA didn't set 34" seat-pitch as standard, Boeing had it's w
26 Post contains images Viscount724 : I expect the 20 inch spacing between window frames was more related to structural issues. The closely-spaced small windows offer much more flexibilit
27 Blackbird : So, Boeing had no intention to produce a more versatile seating layout when creating the window-dimensions and spacing for the B-707? Or did they have
28 Starglider : With some minor differences in details such as attachment to the airframe, yes. Boeing had a more versatile aircraft from the start when compared to
29 Viscount724 : The airlines determine the seating layout (seat pitch) not the manufacturer. Seat tracks are generally designed so seats can be moved in 1 inch incre
30 Blackbird : So, Douglas had no reason to believe that the seating pitch would ever reduce to 34", and saw no reason in using smaller windows as a result? Am I wro
31 Post contains images Starglider : In the early days, no (launch customer driven). Later on, in the mid 60s, yes because the market was changing with increasing demand in air travel, b
32 Blackbird : The launch customers all sat 40" seat pitch across the whole cabin? None of them used a different pitch at first? Wow, Andrea Kent
33 Blackbird : What was Boeing's initial seat-pitch for coach? Also... was there indications that would suggest that eventually air travel would exceed that of ship-
34 Viscount724 : I don't think that is correct. I'm almost certain that many early 707 and DC-8 customers had significantly less than 40 inch pitch in economy class w
35 Dougloid : I do not know what size they were but I can tell you that they were adjusted with a bag ful of shot. There had to be a certain distance between the fu
36 Blackbird : Viscount724, What were the seat-pitch arrangements for the DC-8's launch customers? To Dougloid, Also, what's a bag-full of shot? Andrea K
37 Dougloid : Heck, Andrea I thought you were a trapshooter....a bag of shot is just that-a bag of shot. Like a canvas bag full of BBs.
38 Viscount724 : Almost 50 years later that information is going to be rather difficult to find! As far as I know, UA did offer the same seat pitch in both F and Y cl
39 Blackbird : Well, it did seem to me that there was a possibility that you meant something other than that particular definition, since it was regarding the measu
40 Dougloid : That was the way the knuckledraggers adjusted the position of the window within the frame, by smacking it with a shot bag in the direction they wante
41 Viscount724 : I don't think Douglas considered any other window design for the DC-8 than the large windows they used, but I could be wrong. I would assume customer
42 LongHauler : Unfortunately, I don't know how to upload/show a scan in one of these messages, but I am looking at the DC-8-40 seat plan from a DC-8 Operating Manual
43 Blackbird : Douglas must have known that some launch customers weren't going to seat 40"-pitch... so why didn't they just use a different window, perhaps a DC-10
44 Blackbird : Don Douglas Sr was very known for his integrity, Was Douglas contractually obligated, or committed to the large window and 40-inch spacing? Or could t
45 Viscount724 : I'm no structural expert, but just eyeballing any DC-8 photo, to double the number of windows which would be the result of adopting the Boeing 20" sp
46 Blackbird : If anybody has an answer What launch customers used seating layouts less than 40-inches? Andrea K
47 Viscount724 : As mentioned earlier, UA and AC apparently did have the same pitch in F and Y class on their first DC-8s for a while, but not sure if anyone else has
48 Blackbird : The major launch customer (UAL) though did select a 40-inch pitch across the board though right? P.S. Oh... this is kind of unrelated... but why did D
49 Viscount724 : Personally I've always considered the DC-8 one of the most attractive commercial aircraft, including those being built today. Not sure what benefits
50 Blackbird : I was just wondering because Vickers incorporated that into the VC-10, Andrea K
51 Starglider : A double-bubble fuselage cross section has an advantage over a circular cross section in that it has slightly more space in the passenger cabin with
52 Blackbird : Still, why did Vickers go to so much extra effort to cover up the "groove" created where the two bubbles join? Andrea Kent
53 Post contains links and images LongHauler : I have to agree, I think the DC-8-63 in CPAir's "Orange" paint scheme to be one of the most attractive combinations in the sky. Certainly much more a
54 Post contains images Viscount724 : Although I agree the "Orange" looked good on CP's DC-8s,especially the -63, I also thought the previous "goose" design was excellent. That livery was
55 Post contains links and images LongHauler : Something about which I have always been curious, and perhaps Viscount724 can shed some light. In the late 1960s as the Orange paint scheme was introd
56 Post contains images Viscount724 : That was slightly before my time, but I would guess it was a minor livery update as the block letters were probably considered more modern than the o
57 Blackbird : That is a beautiful paint-scheme (the orange/red/silver one). It is truely gorgeous. Andrea K
58 Blackbird : Back to the window size thing. Was Douglas contractually obligated (Based on the 1953 design) to stick with the larger window / 40-inch spacing on the
59 Blackbird : Well I thought it was a good question... were they? Andrea K
60 Post contains images Starglider : Personally, correct me if i'm wrong, i think Douglas developed the DC-8 cabin using experience gained with the DC-6 and DC-7 with regards to window sp
61 Blackbird : Would Douglas, hypothetically, have taken a serious hit if they decided to use smaller windows? Or did it not really make a difference? Andrea Kent
62 Viscount724 : I doubt the DC-8 vs 707 window size issue had any effect on customer decisions. Many things would have been higher priorities like price, delivery da
63 Blackbird : What kind of maintenance support systems were Douglas known for. Characteristic wise that is? Andrea Kent
64 Starglider : As mentioned before, Douglas designed its aircraft very conservatively ranging from the DC-3 thru DC-10/MD11 which shows in their sturdiness. The Dou
65 Blackbird : Starglider, Do you think the CV-880 could have lasted 100,000 hrs if they weren't retired from service from a simple sturdiness perspective? Andrea Ke
66 Starglider : Purely based on airframe sturdiness? Yes, most likely it could have, provided it had the manufacturer's product support / maintenance program in plac
67 Blackbird : Starglider, Considering the designer always provided product support and maintenance programs in place to monitor conditions, it's logical to conclude
68 Starglider : Fact is that the last CV-880 / CV-990 was put out of commission way short of the 100.000 hr mark for economic reasons and the manufacturer has pulled
69 Blackbird : Do you know how fatigue resistant the CV-880's frame was? Andrea Kent
70 Starglider : Digging in the information i have, i discovered i had more info about the CV-880 than i thought i had. Reviewing a Convair 880 development & manufact
71 Blackbird : So, it wouldn't have been able to last as long as the DC-8 then in terms of overall number of hours logged? Andrea
72 Starglider : Maybe true regarding hours but not necessarily so regarding cycles. The DC-8 is a long range aircraft while the CV-880 was a short to medium range ai
73 Blackbird : Dear Starglider, 100,000 to 200,000 cycles? Would that be around 100,000+ hrs of service life? Jesus Christ! Did they test the wing to destruction? If
74 Starglider : The stress / fatigue tests conducted on the CV-880 fuselage in the water tank consisted of one minute cycles, simulating taxi, take-off, flight at alt
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