Dmanmtl From Canada, joined May 2006, 92 posts, RR: 0 Posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 26535 times:
Might sound like a really stupid questions but do modern aircraft have anything similar to a Key like we would have in a car? Is there some device that has to be inserted to get the plane to power up? A code that must be entered to start the computer system?
CoolGuy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 410 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 26551 times:
HAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31201 posts, RR: 58 Reply 4, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 26546 times:
There is a key to the cockpit door.Only used if the Door is shut from Inside.Although most times Mx personnell gets into the Flight deck thru the Emergency Access.
regds
MEL
RoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 8748 posts, RR: 52 Reply 6, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 26539 times:
Small airplanes like Cessnas do have keys. You have to insert them in the door and also to engage the starter, although unlike a car its pretty easy to pick a lock in a Cessna.
For jets,there have been ceremonial handing over of the keys, but that's just a ceremony. You can enter the plane by just opening the door. There are no locks usually, but I'm sure some airlines have made it impossible to get in overnight. Then the flight deck door is often open, but if it isn't you will need to enter a passcode or use some sort of key depending on the plane. Once you are in the flight deck, you are free to start up the plane as you wish. Of course you have to know the proper procedure, but if you hunt around, you can find an operational manual somewhere.
Quoting CoolGuy (Reply 3): Well then how is an aircraft started?
Turn on the APU
Engage the starters with Bleed Air
Add fuel
You have a startup in a nutshell.
[Edited 2007-07-13 16:13:03]
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
Jhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6195 posts, RR: 13 Reply 8, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 26393 times:
I read a story about a commercial jet that was stolen (I think it was in Africa). And of course, they're repo'd all the time. I guess the manufacturers didn't worry too much about it when building the airplanes because they're usually parked in secure locations. Of course, not always--I've seen large jets parked at small airports totally unsecured which is lunacy in my opinion, but then again, where would somebody hide something like that if they were to steal it?
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
UAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 10, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 26334 times:
My dad's Cessna 335 has two keys, (I think). One for each engine. But the engines aren't started by the keys. It's push-button start. (Don't quote me on that, I haven't been in the front of that plane in a long time, neither has my dad). The entry door also has a key.
San747 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4936 posts, RR: 13 Reply 12, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 26280 times:
Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 6): You can enter the plane by just opening the door. There are no locks usually, but I'm sure some airlines have made it impossible to get in overnight.
True. Just grab a stair truck and open the door! But most airline policies are that pieces of red tape are placed on doors and cargo doors or RON aircraft in order to prevent tampering... or to provide evidence of tampering if it has taken place.
HAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31201 posts, RR: 58 Reply 13, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 26245 times:
Quoting San747 (Reply 12): But most airline policies are that pieces of red tape are placed on doors and cargo doors or RON aircraft in order to prevent tampering... or to provide evidence of tampering if it has taken place.
GoingAround From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 127 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 26196 times:
I remember someone once asking me 'but if planes don't have keys, why don't people steal them more often'
It took a while to run through the fact that not only would they have to get past security, through the locked jetbridge doors, manage to start the aircraft, get push back, get ATC clearance, and just about everything else would be near impossible at a commercial airport unless it was a scheduled flight.
TheCol From Canada, joined Jan 2007, 2010 posts, RR: 6 Reply 16, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 26156 times:
Quoting Jhooper (Reply 8): I guess the manufacturers didn't worry too much about it when building the airplanes because they're usually parked in secure locations. Of course, not always--I've seen large jets parked at small airports totally unsecured which is lunacy in my opinion
Quoting GoingAround (Reply 15):
It took a while to run through the fact that not only would they have to get past security, through the locked jetbridge doors, manage to start the aircraft, get push back, get ATC clearance, and just about everything else would be near impossible at a commercial airport unless it was a scheduled flight.
In this day and age, a thief wouldn't get very far. The minute you'd take off without a flight plan and clearance from ATC, which goes hand in hand, the nearest fighter squadrons will be alerted and dispatched.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
Ralgha From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 1614 posts, RR: 6 Reply 17, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 26125 times:
Quoting GoingAround (Reply 15): It took a while to run through the fact that not only would they have to get past security, through the locked jetbridge doors, manage to start the aircraft, get push back, get ATC clearance, and just about everything else would be near impossible at a commercial airport unless it was a scheduled flight.
Many RONs are not parked at a gate, thus negating the need for push back, and the need to get past a locked door. Some RONs are at uncontrolled airports, thus negating the need for ATC clearance. Some airports where RONs are at are deserted at night, not exactly hard to get into the airplane. Starting it wouldn't be very hard for anyone that knew the basics of research.
Quoting TheCol (Reply 16): In this day and age, a thief wouldn't get very far. The minute you'd take off without a flight plan and clearance from ATC, which goes hand in hand, the nearest fighter squadrons will be alerted and dispatched.
What exactly would stop them from filing a flight plan and then getting the clearance from ATC? For that matter they wouldn't even need a flight plan, just tell ATC they're departing VFR and they'll be long gone.
It would actually be very easy to steal an airliner, you just need to pick the right time of day and the right airport.
KELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 5934 posts, RR: 4 Reply 18, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 26126 times:
Quoting TheCol (Reply 16):
In this day and age, a thief wouldn't get very far. The minute you'd take off without a flight plan and clearance from ATC, which goes hand in hand, the nearest fighter squadrons will be alerted and dispatched.
What, you mean taking off VFR and squawking 1200 in an airliner would arrouse suspicion? Wonder if John Travolta ever does this...
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
Ralgha From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 1614 posts, RR: 6 Reply 19, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 26081 times:
Quoting KELPkid (Reply 18): What, you mean taking off VFR and squawking 1200 in an airliner would arrouse suspicion?
No, actually, it wouldn't. It's not THAT uncommon.
57AZ From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2550 posts, RR: 2 Reply 20, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 26045 times:
Quoting UAL747 (Reply 10): My dad's Cessna 335 has two keys, (I think). One for each engine. But the engines aren't started by the keys. It's push-button start. (Don't quote me on that, I haven't been in the front of that plane in a long time, neither has my dad). The entry door also has a key.
Keys on the Cessnas won't stop a determined thief from taking one. If they know what they're doing, they'll have a set of factory master keys and be able get in. As for ignition, it's possible to bypass that too. Remember that with electronics, anything is possible if you have the right tools. As for push-button starts, I don't know about the 335 but everything from the 340 up is push button start. Turn on the electrical master, alternators, pumps and start. Know what you're doing and you can be in and rolling in less than five minutes.
"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
KPIE172 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 20 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 26039 times:
There was a young man at PIE who stole a Cessna... He did have the keys, but took off without a clearance. The Coast Guard Dolphins caught up with him but moments later he plowed into a building in downtown Tampa.
I suppose it brings up the point that given most commercial airports are right on top of big cities, someone could takeoff and be downtown before an F-16/15 interuppted. I've seen this topic come up before on the boards.
ConjureMe From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 36 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 26029 times:
Quoting Ralgha (Reply 17): What exactly would stop them from filing a flight plan and then getting the clearance from ATC? For that matter they wouldn't even need a flight plan, just tell ATC they're departing VFR and they'll be long gone.
It would actually be very easy to steal an airliner, you just need to pick the right time of day and the right airport.
ARE YOU FREAKING SERIOUS? First off, what the heck are you a captain of and do you have any understanding of the Avionics of that aircraft? Second, if someone was stupid enough to try and steal an airliner do you really think they would try to obtain an ATC clearance? Anyway, even though there might not be someone directly watching an airliner while it sits at a small airport, there is ALWAYS someone that is tracking it. Now, stealing a small airplane would be different. However, still quite rare. I believe it is only about a dozen reports per year.
Alright, heart rate is coming back down, now back to hoping some of you guys are just joking.
Never let the plane take you somewhere your brain didn't get to five minutes ago.
Ralgha From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 1614 posts, RR: 6 Reply 23, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 26031 times:
Quoting ConjureMe (Reply 22): ARE YOU FREAKING SERIOUS? First off, what the heck are you a captain of and do you have any understanding of the Avionics of that aircraft?
Alright, I'll bite, I'm bored. I'm a captain of an EMB-120, and I have a very good understanding of the avionics of that aircraft, but that's beside the point.
Quoting ConjureMe (Reply 22): Second, if someone was stupid enough to try and steal an airliner do you really think they would try to obtain an ATC clearance?
ATC wouldn't know that they were stealing it. Charging out of a controlled airport without talking to ATC would draw much unwanted attention. Call up ATC and they'll blend right in with everyone else.
Quoting ConjureMe (Reply 22): Anyway, even though there might not be someone directly watching an airliner while it sits at a small airport, there is ALWAYS someone that is tracking it.
Flight trackers work off the ATC system, which tracks aircraft by a discrete transponder code. Can't track a VFR aircraft squawking 1200 that way. In my airplane the company can track via the FMS, but that's easily circumvented. Similar systems for other airliners can be similarly circumvented.
Quoting ConjureMe (Reply 22): Now, stealing a small airplane would be different. However, still quite rare. I believe it is only about a dozen reports per year.
Of course it's rare. There's little reason to steal them, but it's not hard. Any pre-1990s Cessna can be opened and started with a screwdriver (or less). I don't know if the new production run airplanes are more secure or not.
Like I said, stealing an airliner would not be hard. Hiding it after the fact would be harder.
Jetlagged From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 2452 posts, RR: 17 Reply 24, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 26012 times:
Boeing always used to provide a set of keys with each aircraft on customer acceptance. Presumably they still do. I don't think they actualy unlocked anything though, purely symbolic.
The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
25 Jetstar: All corporate jets have keys, because they overnight at many airports that do not have airline service and therefore less security. The locks are on t
26 57AZ: I'd wager that the number of reports are a bit higher than that. The Bahamas are a favorite area for aircraft theft as are areas that run along the M
27 Bablackpilot: I'm sitting here laughing at most of you cessna piston and other general aviation piston pilots..... You all are making the entry and starting of the
28 HAWK21M: The earlier B737s had a cockpit door key. regds MEL
29 Mender: Did you really fly the aircraft away without the instrument panel and radios powered. You might have had a handheld radio but this sounds like you sh
30 KELPkid: I have yet to see a Cessna whose master switch is protected by the key...you can turn the master on and off all day long without the key
31 Ralgha: Nothing says you have to turn on the avionics as long as you stay outside of airspace that requires it. Whether it's smart or not depends on the situ
32 GoingAround: I was talking about stealing a Commercial Aircraft, and you would be hard pressed to fly one of them out of a commercial airport without permission a
33 Ralgha: At John Wayne, for example, many RONs (737s, A320s, etc.) are parked on taxiways overnight because there isn't enough gate space. Other airports have
34 57AZ: Stealing a jet airliner might be a bit of a task but stealing something like a B1900D could be done. Just find where one RONs at a small airfield-pre
35 TheCol: I imagine it would be difficult for an average Joe/Jane to a flight plan for a commercial airliner without arousing some kind of suspicion. Especiall
36 Ralgha: I'm assuming that said persons who would be abducting the airliner would have some knowledge of what they're attempting to do. Everything has a circu
37 Jhooper: Chill dude...As a CFII, I'm sure you have a higher tolerance for stress than this. Not necessarily. There are a disturbing number of large unsecured
38 TheCol: Maybe, I'm not sure about how secure those systems can be designed. I imagine the airlines could rig something up where the tracking system couldn't
40 9VSIO: It's about to be stolen P.S. wow Ralgha! capt at 25 or less?! I'm now green with envy! PPS. Isn't it part of ATPL and a/c type rating to know your a/c
41 SEPilot: I think that this is the real issue. The bigger the plane, the fewer available places to park it. An airliner disappearing would certainly make news;
42 HAWK21M: Any stats available on stolen Aircraft. regds MEL
43 SashA: I suppose taxiing out of a parking slot backwards wouldn't be a prob for airliners capable of powerback. Witnessed personally on a Do 328 (it wasn't b
44 HAWK21M: Out here there is a Security person for each Aircraft. regds MEL
45 FighterPilot: If someone was to steal something like a KingAir, what would you all have to do to hide it? You'd have to repaint it and create a fake reg. What else?
47 SEPilot: As soon as you try and fly it IFR I suspect the fake registration would show up as fake. When you register an aircraft you have to give the serial nu
48 SBBRTech: You mean like a leasing agent going down to the planes location and stealing it back?
49 MD11Engineer: Not if you fly outside your own country. A few years ago in Germany a visiting FAA inspector on vacation noticed a registration number on an N-regist
50 SEPilot: Good point; I hadn't really considered that.
51 Tdscanuck: That happens. I knew a guy that used to do that for a living. Tom.
52 Stil: Wrong It's an An12F (LZ-BRA). You can see a lock in the handle. The padlock must be some kind of extra security system Stil
53 HAWK21M: Isn't there a regular Audit carried out. regds MEL
54 SEPilot: In a word, no. I was a member of Civil Air Patrol for a while, and at one point we were tasked with "dropping in" to all the airports in our state an
55 HAWK21M: Why would a storm be raised & who would raise it.Wouldn't it be for a genuine cause. regds MEL
56 SEPilot: Aircraft owners in the US tend to be a feisty lot, very upset at any kind of government intrusion into their activities. Never mind that very few of
57 MD11Engineer: Most older Russian planes have locks in the doort handles (for passenger, service and cargo doors). When we had a TU-154 arrive, the first person to
58 Dufo: By telling to pilot on your left/right: "your flight, start is aprooved"!
59 HAWK21M: So Is there no Inner handle on the TU154 Cargo compartment. I'm surprised,on the contary they should be encouraging a legal job.If they are clean why
60 MD11Engineer: They are lower deck compartments without access from the cabin, just like on a 737. Jan
61 HAWK21M: Ok.But the B737 Bulk cargo doors have Handles on Inside & Outside the Door.What about the TU154 as you say its locked from outside. regds MEL
62 Scooter01: This is what a key to new 737 looks like. Sorry, no remote button for the doorlocks -not even a spare key.... Scooter01
63 tdscanuck: Ooooh...shiny! Do these actually fit anything at all, or is it purely ceremonial? It would be hilarious if this did some completely mundane function,
64 Viscount724: Not sure if the Dash 8 has a key but spotted following item in the Transport Canada incident reports a few days ago at a small airport in the Arctic r
65 MD11Engineer: It might be a key for the backup cockpit door lock (in case the electric lock is inop). Jan
66 KELPkid: Should be easy to find a suspect (owing to the population density of the said region...)
67 Fly2HMO: It's as useful for opening doors as a wedding ring is as useful for opening cans.
68 DocLightning: I'm sure they are. ...I think... At some point you would have to fool someone into thinking that you had business being on that airliner. I do not kn
69 etherealsky: Fascinating! It;'s probably a shot in the dark, especially 3 years after the fact, but does anybody have more info or a link about this story? I'd lo
70 26point2: Q: When a plane is legitimately repo'd how does one get the maintenance logs? Surely the plane cannot be sold again without maint. logs. We lock our b
71 Mir: Ah, only if you're a redneck then. Got it. -Mir
72 DiamondFlyer: They quite often are sold without it. Not that big of a deal, you just have to go back and check all the AD's that are on the components of the airpl
73 MD11Engineer: It is a big deal, because then you´ll automatically have to assume that all lifetime limited parts have reached the end of their service life, e.g.
74 DiamondFlyer: If you would care to notice, I did say that I was speaking about smaller aircraft. But yes, large planes, I'd imagine its quite a pain. Something wit
75 woodreau: There was a pretty good article I think it was in the air & space smithsonian magazine recently that covered the aircraft repo man. It was about s
76 MD11Engineer: On larger aircraft the maintenance records are usually so much paper that they are not being kept on board of the aircraft. There will be the tech log
77 HAWK21M: Out here The Tech log never leaves the Aircraft, unless its required to access some Information away from the Aircraft.However Nowadays with WiFi Acc
78 MD11Engineer: For nightstops we usually take the tech logs to our office because it is easier to enter the data into our MX computer system (no WIFI access on the
79 HAWK21M: We used to do that earlier,But WiFi access solved it. There was always a concern that the Right Tech log book should not reach the wrong Aircraft reg
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