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Who Taxis The Plane?  
User currently offlineAlaska737 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1063 posts, RR: 5
Posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5504 times:

hey just a quick question i was having a debate with a friend of mine about commercial airliners taxing, and i cant recall if both the captian and F/O taxi or if only the captian was allowed to taxi? seems i remember an AS captain telling me that captians are the only ones authorized to taxi but not sure if memory serves me right or maybe it differs from airline to airline.

thank you

82 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5498 times:

Quoting Alaska737 (Thread starter):
maybe it differs from airline to airline.

It may also differ from aircraft to aircraft. There may be aircraft that only have the nose wheel tiller on the left hand side, which would mean that only the Captain can taxi the aircraft. One example is the IL-62. There's a vid of a CU IL-62 which shows that only the Captain can taxi the aircraft, because the nose wheel sterring wheel, which is connected to the yoke and is used instead of the usual tiller, is located on the left hand side yoke.



^^You can see it in this vid, starting at 2:11.


User currently offlineFLY2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5500 times:

Quoting Alaska737 (Thread starter):
it differs from airline to airline.

Bingo. Most planes have dual steering tillers, but only captains are authorized to taxi on most airlines. If the FO is flying the outbound leg, the captain will taxi up to the rwy and "hands over" the plane to the FO once the plane is ready for take off. Depends on airplane to airplane too, a few only have one tiller on the captains side.


User currently offlineTheGreatChecko From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1128 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5484 times:

This is going to be company policy, so there exists the possibility that at some airlines, the FO is allowed to taxi. However, I'm pretty confident in saying that the vast, if not almost all airlines only allow the captain to taxi the aircraft.

Furthermore, unless its a training situation, most captains would probably reserve taxiing for themselves. While the captain would be ultimately responsible for any mishap involving their aircraft, it would be especially difficult to explain why he or she allowed their first officer to taxi into a baggage cart, runway light, or other easily missed obstruction.

At my airline, only the captain taxis the aircraft. I have never gotten further than aiming the aircraft towards the taxiway off the runway and I'm okay with that. The captain gets paid big bucks to worry about the rest!

One has to remember that the slow speeds involved in a taxi incident changes the perception considerably. Not having the captain at the controls doesn't help one bit either.

Checko



"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 5416 times:

It really varies from airline to airline. However, more and more airlines have broken it down so the PF taxis the aircraft (where possible) and the PNF monitors the taxi, or assumes the duties of what would have been considered FO duties.

User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4987 posts, RR: 42
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 5410 times:

At my airline, only the Captain taxis the aircraft. This is a policy with which I do not agree, as the best time to be learning how to taxi is with someone more experienced. That being said, when on the A320 I used to let the F/O taxi when he was flying the leg, until instead of "technique" it became "policy" that only Captains taxi!

Now on the EMJ, with only one tiller, it is moot!



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 5404 times:

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 2):
Most planes have dual steering tillers, but only captains are authorized to taxi on most airlines.

Not true...... Most planes have single tillers and only on the Capt's side. I can't think of any commercial aircraft I've worked on that has duel tillers. The Capt taxi's by default.



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 5389 times:

There a quite a few aircraft with a n/w tiller on both sides....all B747's for example.

Some L1011's...those that were destined to British Airways, for example.

Even some B707's, Qantas aircraft, for example, all -320B series.

First Officers are allowed to taxi in acft so equipped, subject to company policy, and then ONLY with the approval of the Captain.


User currently offlineThrottleHold From South Africa, joined Jul 2006, 657 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 5361 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 6):
Not true...... Most planes have single tillers and only on the Capt's side. I can't think of any commercial aircraft I've worked on that has duel tillers. The Capt taxi's by default.


BAe 146
Avro RJ
B747
A318/19/20/21
A330
A340

All these have tillers on both sides. I have flown most of them.
At my company the PF taxies, so it can either be the Capt or the F/O. I don't see the problem with F/O's taxiing. If they're checked out to handle a V1 cut, surely they'll be able to steer the thing on the ground!


User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 5339 times:

Remember, many mechanics also have taxi licences.

User currently offlineN710PS From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1166 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5323 times:

At most companies the ability to taxi the airplane is only granted of the captain. This stands true for my company I know (duhh). It's not only that iti is company policy but at most carriers it is based on the fact that there is on many airplanes only one tillar. When you get to the world of jets and airliners pedals do not cut it.  Wink


There is plenty of room for Gods animals, right next to the mashed potatoes!
User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5247 times:

Many co-pilots complain..........'I can't taxi the airplane, it's my right.'

Ha!

It is NO such thing, so get back in your boxes.

""Maneuvering in tight parking quarters takes skill, something these younger co-pilots are short of in large quanties, so they can just sit on their hands and do as they are told."""

Sound harsh?

A short speech from a Chief pilot long ago, directed an malcontents in the RHS.

His words exactly.

And, he was RIGHT


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5238 times:

Quoting 474218 (Reply 9):
Remember, many mechanics also have taxi licences.

Correction: Taxi qualifications. Not licenses.

I can only speak for AS 734's, those have only one steering tiller on the captain's side on the lower left panel shroud left of the captains seat. I think they also are the same on their 73G's, 738's and 739's.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinePilotpip From United States of America, joined exactly 11 years ago today! , 3150 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5193 times:

I don't think any ERJ-145s have tillers on the right side. I can't taxi, that will come with upgrade.


DMI
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5192 times:

Lets put it this way.Depending on the number of Tillers present either on both sides or only the LH side.The Person seated on the Left taxies.It could be the captain or F/O under a check.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineCALPilot From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 998 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5179 times:

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 2):
Most planes have dual steering tillers, but only captains are authorized to taxi on most airlines

Just so we are stright on this...

In the US very few airliners have dual steering. In 20 years of flying and riding other airlines jumpseats I've seen dual tillers on the A300's, DC10's and a few (just a few domistic narrowbody Airbus).

Now of course on all of the Boeing, and MD's you have 6 to 8deg. nose wheel steering with the rudder peddles.


User currently offlineBoeing767mech From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1027 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5136 times:

Quoting ThrottleHold (Reply 8):
Quoting EMBQA (Reply 6):
Not true...... Most planes have single tillers and only on the Capt's side. I can't think of any commercial aircraft I've worked on that has duel tillers. The Capt taxi's by default.



BAe 146
Avro RJ
B747
A318/19/20/21
A330
A340

All these have tillers on both sides. I have flown most of them.
At my company the PF taxies, so it can either be the Capt or the F/O. I don't see the problem with F/O's taxiing. If they're checked out to handle a V1 cut, surely they'll be able to steer the thing on the ground!

Add 777 to the list



Never under-estimate the predictably of stupidty
User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5105 times:

Quoting 411A (Reply 11):
Many co-pilots complain..........'I can't taxi the airplane, it's my right.'

Ha!

It is NO such thing, so get back in your boxes.

""Maneuvering in tight parking quarters takes skill, something these younger co-pilots are short of in large quanties, so they can just sit on their hands and do as they are told."""

Sound harsh?

A short speech from a Chief pilot long ago, directed an malcontents in the RHS.

His words exactly.

And, he was RIGHT

Lots of CRM in your organisation then?


User currently offlineAJ From Australia, joined Nov 1999, 2391 posts, RR: 24
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5096 times:

At my airline all the widebody types have dual tillers (B743/B744/B763/A330) and the First Officers hold command ratings on the aircraft. As a result when it is the FO's sector we taxi until the aircraft is aligned with the gate as most NIGS on our network rely on the eyeline of the left seat.

User currently offlineHotelmode From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 460 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5094 times:

Seems to be a geographical split here. I cannot think of a UK airline that does not allow FO's to taxi (where 2 tillers fitted) The only time we cant is when the stand guidance is LHS only as described above. BA always has 2 tillers fitted to its new aircraft.

User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9524 posts, RR: 41
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5088 times:

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 17):
Lots of CRM in your organisation then?

I think we've... er... been there before.  Smile

I seem to remember from a previous discussion that those airlines that do not restrict taxiing to the Captain (and there seem to be quite a few) also take the FO's experience into consideration in that a brand new FO might not be allowed to taxi but a more experienced one might.

Quoting 411A (Reply 11):
"Maneuvering in tight parking quarters takes skill, something these younger co-pilots are short of in large quanties"

I also seem to remember from previous discussions that, in some cases, the Captain will taxi in tight areas, such as the ramp area, but might let the FO do the rest of the taxiing, though I may have remembered that incorrectly.

Quoting 411A (Reply 11):
"...so they can just sit on their hands and do as they are told."

I know that's probably tongue-in-cheek but it's quite the opposite of what I witnessed during a recent flight deck visit, courtesy of a major international airline.  Smile

Since the FO flew the leg and operated the thrust and parking brake while taxiing, I think it's fair to assume was also steering, though I didn't actually see who had a hand on the tiller. Both the Captain and the FO agreed that, unlike most other features, taxiing is an area of the simulator that isn't very realistic (due to the limitations in depicting the outside view in 2D, I assume, but I had too many other questions to pursue it  bouncy  ) so I guess real experience is more valuable.


User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9524 posts, RR: 41
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5086 times:

Quoting David L (Reply 20):
I also seem to remember from previous discussions that, in some cases, the Captain will taxi in tight areas, such as the ramp area, but might let the FO do the rest of the taxiing,



Quoting AJ (Reply 18):
As a result when it is the FO's sector we taxi until the aircraft is aligned with the gate as most NIGS on our network rely on the eyeline of the left seat.



Quoting Hotelmode (Reply 19):
The only time we cant is when the stand guidance is LHS only as described above.

Sorry, I was interrupted when I'd almost finished my comments and accidentally posted without checking for more recent replies.  embarrassed 


User currently offlineJman40 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 58 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5024 times:

Quoting CALPilot (Reply 15):
Now of course on all of the Boeing, and MD's you have 6 to 8deg. nose wheel steering with the rudder peddles.

In the case of airlines in which only Captains taxi, I have a question:

If the F/O is flying a leg, I assume they have the ability to make minor corrections during the takeoff/landing roll using this 6-8 degrees of steering with the pedals. In the case of a landing, at what point does the F/O turn the plane back over to the captain in order to exit the runway, either by high-speed taxiway or otherwise?

I've always wondered about this.....

J


User currently offlinePilotpip From United States of America, joined exactly 11 years ago today! , 3150 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4984 times:

You can make small corrections with the rudder pedals. On takeoff, the captain will line the aircraft up on centerline, then relinquish controls.

We turn it back over at 50kts on landing roll. Standard call out per our SOP:

"50 kts. My controls, your radios"



DMI
User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4961 times:

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 17):
Lots of CRM in your organisation then?

Certainly is...

Rule #1. The Captain is always right.

Rule #2. If in doubt, refer to rule number one.


Works like a charm.


25 Starlionblue : At SK on the Mad Dog this is at 80 knots. This conveniently coincides with the "point of no return lite" call. While V1 is the "true" point of no ret
26 Post contains images 777236ER :
27 Shoes : I spent 35 years working line maint and the most fun that can be had is taxing a widebody down to the blast fence to do a run up after a engine change
28 Max Q : At my outfit, the Capatain takes control no later then when the aircraft departs the centreline for an exit taxiway. Usually 80-60 knots.
29 KBFIspotter : Yep... I am working on getting my taxi qualification at the moment for the Dash 8-400, and the steering tiller is only on the captian's side, and it
30 Brons2 : Please don't start this again. We've already hashed and re-rashed this discussion with 411A.
31 PGNCS : These is the most asinine posts I have ever read. Some people can't be trained.
32 RoseFlyer : I know the 737, so I'll give my input on that. The 737 typically has a single tiller on the captain's side but it is a customer option to have a dual
33 OB1504 : 411A, are you at liberty to say which company you fly for?
34 411A : Two different charter companies persently, OB1504, depending on the season, short to medium term contracts, and a third new company, where I am the Ch
35 Post contains images XJRamper : And if this is the case: I will be sure to avoid XJR
36 HAWK21M : Would the steering cables for the RH tiller be routed thru the RH NWW or similiarly to the rudder steering sisconnect on the LH side. regds MEL
37 RoseFlyer : I don't fully understand you, but in a dual tiller case, the line routing to thte nose wheel steering actuators is longer since the cable will go thr
38 BuckFifty : I sit in the RH seat, and I get to taxi. It really depends on the airline, as said before. Taxiing is not a difficult job, if one is trained properly
39 Post contains images 2H4 : Hey 411A, 1959 (and it's dismal safety record) called. They'd like their SOPs back. 2H4
40 411A : Oh gosh...sorry, I will keep 'em, thank you. PanAmerican trained, and I ain't about to change anytime soon.
41 777236ER : You mean the airline that hasn't existed for the last 16 years? You boast about training that old? You're dangerous not only to yourself, but your cr
42 Post contains links N231YE : 411A is very knowledgeable in aviation, in fact, I respect him. However, I am going to disagree with 411A here. Remember...the "I am the captain, you
43 411A : Typical nonsense. An interestesting statement considering you don't know me personally. When I retire, it will be with the absolute knowledge that I
44 2H4 : I've seen automobile tires worn through more than one ply, with metal poking through the broken, bald rubber. These tires have transported many peopl
45 411A : You make the same mistake many folks do, 2H4, when they look at some tires on Russian airliners. Many times they appear to have quite a lot of cord sh
46 2H4 : I'm not talking about Russian airliners, 411A...I'm talking about automobiles, and there's nothing safe about steel belting protruding from worn rubbe
47 Post contains images David L : Maybe, but how many share your views on CRM? Fingers crossed, eh?
48 474218 : I for one would feel 100% safe flying with 411A.
49 777236ER : The greatest ever development in aviation safety is CRM. Not turbine engines, FBW, windshear detection, nothing like that, but CRM. And despite that,
50 411A : A very naive opinion.
51 Spruit : Wow, it didn't take long for this thread to descend into your typical A.Net slagfest did it! Ever wonder why more "professional" pilots/crew/normal pe
52 411A : Now you see, Spruit, why many real professional pilots have little to say here, save for the odd comment or two. Far too many armchair wanabee 'expert
53 Post contains images Xjramper : Based on that logic, you have little time for yourself. XJR
54 2H4 : 411A, I've got an honest question for you: Do you believe that you have any lessons left to learn in your career? 2H4
55 777236ER : No not really, what else would you say had a greater impact? Actually, no, not an armchair wanabee expert. IM me if you want to know more. The vast m
56 VC10 : Now I know that 411A sometimes gives what many people would say are old fashion ideas, but at least it is a change from the many political correct rep
57 Post contains images HAWK21M : Folks....The Bottom line is....No one knows everything. I appreciate knowledge shared out here & there are threads that I continue to read even if I f
58 Spruit : I appreciate your views, comments and experience provided here and also on PPrune.org too especially regarding the "El Ten", but sometimes it's easie
59 777236ER : But by formalising CRM and making it SOP as well as changing the entire culture at airlines, serious problems can be solved. Yes, there were good cap
60 411A : Nonsense. Although other FD crew members are routinely consulted with regard to the flight progress and operation (as they certainly should be), a pu
61 Post contains images 2H4 : 411A: Please answer my question in reply 54. Thanks. 2H4
62 Post contains images Jetlagged : There is no real conflict between CRM and 411A's views. He's just putting it in such a way to wind people up. It's happened before, on this very subje
63 411A : Oh, always lessons to learn, 2H4 My particular speciality over the last 20 years or so is to train new First Officers, indeed some of them have no mo
64 Mir : Very true. However, that does not justify this line of thinking: Captains can be (and have been) wrong. And it is the responsibility of the FO to que
65 Post contains images David L : Sounds good until you look back at the last time this was discussed here. As I recall, some of the most vehement disagreement with the "Captain is al
66 2H4 : Please bear with me here, 411A, but this is where I get confused. Lessons are learned by inadvertently exercising poor judgment, and then learning pr
67 411A : Not true at all. For example, you might learn a whole lot by moving into airplane that you had not flown before, and were relying on the information
68 CosmicCruiser : Some of you seem to focus on "what if the capt. is wrong should the f/o...".or "I won't let the capt. kill me".. CRM isn't about someone being wrong
69 Starlionblue : I honestly don't think the purpose of CRM is to enable the F/O to constantly question decisions. The purpose is to avoid Tenerife type disasters wher
70 Post contains images David L : OK, but look back at who suggested that the Captain is always "right". "At every turn"? Again, you seem to be suggesting that there are only two poss
71 2H4 : Exactly, and therein lies the problem. It seems that 411A's definition of CRM is substantially different from the definition that most of the rest of
72 SlamClick : Fairly common and, in my opinion a very bad procedure. I flew that way at one airline. I will try very hard to make my response to it less vitriolic.
73 Mir : One learns by asking questions. So would I, if by "question" you mean object. But if an FO doesn't understand something, and says so, there's nothing
74 GoBoeing : I am not quite sure I understand your explanation as to why you think the transfer of controls at 50+ knots on landing roll is a bad idea. Make no mi
75 CosmicCruiser : Could you elaborate a little further? Our policy is the same, about 50kts, and I don't see the problem. Now if the tower asked us to make another exi
76 SlamClick : Okay, I guess that was a little convoluted. I think it is bad!
77 SlamClick : Too brief? Tell me when I've split a fifty meter bracket and I'll fire for effect.
78 Post contains images David L : Before anyone beats me to the punchline, I am well aware that my view doesn't matter one iota but I am interested in how the views of other pros diff
79 SlamClick : If some chief pilot went to his FAA guys with a proposed manual revision that would have the captain start all takeoffs, keep control to 80 knots the
80 CosmicCruiser : Well that's a little different SlamClick you know that... Maybe you misunderstood me ...we don't have a hard fast rule that says the capt. gets it at
81 SlamClick : What is a "little different?" Control transfer during takeoff vs during landing is different? I don't understand.
82 CosmicCruiser : Of course. In one situation (T/O) you are beginning from a complete or near complete stop and beginning a long and rapid acceleration where control s
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