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Skin Change  
User currently offlineZANL188 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 3595 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 5 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2726 times:
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I didn't find this aircraft in the NTSB accident database so I'm curious. Is this skin change due to an AD, corrosion, nonreportable accident, etc? Seems to be too new to need new skin due to corrosion....

Thanks


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User currently offlineErj-145mech From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 306 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (7 years 5 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2715 times:

Skin damage. Look at the lower right of the second window opening on the removed panel.

User currently offlineZANL188 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 3595 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 5 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2711 times:
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Quoting Erj-145mech (Reply 1):
Skin damage. Look at the lower right of the second window opening on the removed panel.

Thanks..

That also explains the missing frame at the corresponding location on the aircraft.

BTW Great Photo....



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User currently offlineZANL188 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 3595 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 5 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2708 times:
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Followup question...

Will the original skin panel go back on the aircraft once repaired? I understand it's hard to tell from a pix.

Looks like ramp rash... I'd hate to be the ramper involved, this looks pricey.. Looking at all the rivets that need to be drilled out and replaced, there has got to be some major labor dollars involved here....



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User currently offlineN231YE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 5 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2694 times:

Reminds me of the E-170 nose/forward fuselage replacement going on at CLE. There, the DL E-170 that sustained heavy damage after running off the runway, had its nose and fuselage (up to the wing leading edge) cut off, and is awaiting a replacement. There are some photos of this at opshots.net

User currently offlineBoeingFixer From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 534 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 5 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2690 times:

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 3):
Followup question...

Will the original skin panel go back on the aircraft once repaired? I understand it's hard to tell from a pix.

No, the skin will probably be replaced. To go through all the effort to remove the skin is an indication that the skin panel is damaged beyond repairable limits. Once the skin is off, it's easier to template it and make a new one instead of repairing the old skin.

Cheers,

John



Cheers, John YYC
User currently offlineDALMD88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2615 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (7 years 5 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2622 times:

Wow, a lot of work for a small area of damage. I'm suprised they had to remove the whole skin section instead of just repairing the area. Must have been due to the proximity to the window. Also noticed a couple of frames were out in the damaged area.

User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31712 posts, RR: 56
Reply 7, posted (7 years 5 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2577 times:

Interesting.
Wasn't a repair scheme with the Skin installed a possibility.Looks like a frame has been removed too.Anyone aware what transpired.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineBoeingFixer From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 534 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 5 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2477 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 7):
nteresting.
Wasn't a repair scheme with the Skin installed a possibility.

That would all depend on the limits and repair schemes in the SRM. That damage may have required an external repair that was beyond SRM limits thus requiring a skin replacement.

Cheers,

John



Cheers, John YYC
User currently offlineDl757md From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1562 posts, RR: 16
Reply 9, posted (7 years 5 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2463 times:

Quoting DALMD88 (Reply 6):
Wow, a lot of work for a small area of damage. I'm suprised they had to remove the whole skin section instead of just repairing the area. Must have been due to the proximity to the window.

My thoughts exactly. We don't usually have to deal with damage around windows as due to the height of them on our aircraft that area doesn't receive much damage.

Quoting BoeingFixer (Reply 8):
That would all depend on the limits and repair schemes in the SRM. That damage may have required an external repair that was beyond SRM limits thus requiring a skin replacement.

We do repairs all the time that are beyond SRM repair limits. Engineering then issues a preliminary ERA which after Boeing approval becomes a final ERA. Apparently they don't have the same engineering capabilities and/or Embraer wouldn't approve the repairs.

Quoting BoeingFixer (Reply 5):
Once the skin is off, it's easier to template it and make a new one instead of repairing the old skin.

Templating a whole skin panel is rarely successful. It's much easier and more accurate to put up a clean piece of skin and back-drill it in my experience.

DL757Md



757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (7 years 5 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2441 times:

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 9):
Apparently they don't have the same engineering capabilities and/or Embraer wouldn't approve the repairs.

I saw Gamco doing a similar repair, only around the L-1 door, to an A300 about 10 years ago. Again the damage did not look that bad. When I asked why a skin replacement rather than a simpler patch I was told it was outside the SRM limits and Airbus would not approve repairs outside the SRM. There and the only approved fix would be a skin replacement.


User currently offlineFlight152 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 3413 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (7 years 5 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2430 times:

Quoting N231YE (Reply 4):
There are some photos of this at opshots.net

Link? I couldn't find them on the site.


User currently offlineDl757md From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1562 posts, RR: 16
Reply 12, posted (7 years 5 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2421 times:

Quoting 474218 (Reply 10):
I was told it was outside the SRM limits and Airbus would not approve repairs outside the SRM.

I wonder if this is one of the reasons DL doesn't have Airbus. I'll have to ask around work as I was never involved in any sheet-metal repairs on the A-310s we had.

DL757Md



757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (7 years 5 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2420 times:

DL757Md,

I think you will find that the Airbus SRM is fairly limited, or at least it was on the A300 and A310's.


User currently offline777WT From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 877 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (7 years 5 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2356 times:

Quoting N231YE (Reply 4):
Reminds me of the E-170 nose/forward fuselage replacement going on at CLE. There, the DL E-170 that sustained heavy damage after running off the runway, had its nose and fuselage (up to the wing leading edge) cut off, and is awaiting a replacement. There are some photos of this at opshots.net

That was Shuttle America's.

I dobut if it will get the replacement section at CLE, they took so many parts off, right now it's just the mid section and the wings. I think they are gonna take the wings off and put all the parts on a flatbed truck and haul it to either IND or CMH.


User currently offlineBoeingFixer From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 534 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 5 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2335 times:

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 9):
Quoting BoeingFixer (Reply 8):
That would all depend on the limits and repair schemes in the SRM. That damage may have required an external repair that was beyond SRM limits thus requiring a skin replacement.



Quoting Dl757md (Reply 9):
We do repairs all the time that are beyond SRM repair limits. Engineering then issues a preliminary ERA which after Boeing approval becomes a final ERA. Apparently they don't have the same engineering capabilities and/or Embraer wouldn't approve the repairs.

Your error is assuming that Embraer engineering is as generous as Boeing's when it comes to custom engineered repairs. In my experience as a Sheet Metal tech and QA inspector, I'm well aware of what can be done through Boeing in regards to EA's etc.. But, since I do not know how Embraer approaches this subject, I left all conjecture out of my reply. It's highly possible that they are as stringent as Airbus is for skin repairs.

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 9):
Quoting BoeingFixer (Reply 5):
Once the skin is off, it's easier to template it and make a new one instead of repairing the old skin.



Quoting Dl757md (Reply 9):
Templating a whole skin panel is rarely successful. It's much easier and more accurate to put up a clean piece of skin and back-drill it in my experience.

In my experience, back drilling causes more damage to the attaching structure. A properly planned and layed out template is better than back drilling in my opinion. Also, the Embrear skin may have bonded window doublers etc.. that can't be seen in the photo which also might contribute to a complete skin replacement.

Cheers,

John



Cheers, John YYC
User currently offline777WT From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 877 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (7 years 5 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2311 times:

Quoting BoeingFixer (Reply 15):
Your error is assuming that Embraer engineering is as generous as Boeing's when it comes to custom engineered repairs. In my experience as a Sheet Metal tech and QA inspector, I'm well aware of what can be done through Boeing in regards to EA's etc.. But, since I do not know how Embraer approaches this subject, I left all conjecture out of my reply. It's highly possible that they are as stringent as Airbus is for skin repairs.

I work on the ERJ-145 & the ERJ-170....as for skin damage in the SRM, dents have limits, creases or scratches have limits to a certain depth. The area where it's critical is the RVSM static ports.

From my experience, Embraer approves most flyby's in which the aircraft can continue revenue service for a # of hours or cycles before heavy repairs is due.
Dings under or around the door, even the bottom of the main cabin door can have damage no taller than 1/2" and must be blended out.
Dings in the back of the aircraft near the belt loader area is allowed up to about 1/8" deep or less. Got to look up the AMM to refresh my memory.

This is done to minimize the impact of operations due to the aircraft being out of service and the time needed to get the materials, engineering reviews of the perment repair, and the planning along with man power.


One time a truck was left in netural and went under the aircraft at my station! Embraer approved the ferry permit provided that the outflow valve is locked open and ferried in that way.

2 weeks later it came back with a perment repair of a big plate over the area where the damage occured and 2 new stringers were installed.


User currently offlineDl757md From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1562 posts, RR: 16
Reply 17, posted (7 years 5 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2301 times:

Quoting BoeingFixer (Reply 15):
Your error is assuming that Embraer engineering is as generous as Boeing's when it comes to custom engineered repairs

See below.

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 9):
Apparently they don't have the same engineering capabilities and/or Embraer wouldn't approve the repairs.

I actually assumed that it was a possibility that Embraer wasn't as generous as Boeing when approving repairs beyond the scope of the SRM.

Quoting BoeingFixer (Reply 15):
In my experience, back drilling causes more damage to the attaching structure.

Using drill bushings and step reamers it is actually quite easy yet somewhat time consuming to back drill with no chance for damage to existing structure.

Quoting BoeingFixer (Reply 15):
A properly planned and layed out template is better than back drilling in my opinion.

We have different experiences and have been exposed to different tricks. There's always more than one way to skin a cat.

Cheers
DL757Md



757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
User currently offlineN231YE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 5 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2272 times:

Quoting 777WT (Reply 14):
That was Shuttle America's.

I dobut if it will get the replacement section at CLE, they took so many parts off, right now it's just the mid section and the wings. I think they are gonna take the wings off and put all the parts on a flatbed truck and haul it to either IND or CMH.

Yes it was Shuttle America's...actually I am hearing the aircraft may now be scrapped. Supposedly, Embraer does not want to take a completed nose section out of the production line (for this aircraft) due to the high number of orders they are receiving. CLE ARFF tried to purchase the what's left of it for training, I am told.

Quoting Flight152 (Reply 11):
Link? I couldn't find them on the site.

http://www.opshots.net/gallery/displ...?album=lastupby&cat=0&pos=86&uid=1

http://www.opshots.net/gallery/displ...?album=lastupby&cat=0&pos=85&uid=1


User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 19, posted (7 years 5 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2266 times:

Quoting 777WT (Reply 14):
I dobut if it will get the replacement section at CLE,

Nope... they are just awaiting the new nose section to arrive. It will be done in CLE.

Quoting N231YE (Reply 18):
.actually I am hearing the aircraft may now be scrapped

Nope... there is no talk of it being scrapped. It is still on space to be repaired and flying by years end.

I have been involved in several full skin replacements. Most cases it is driven by the SRM. In the picture above I'd say it had to do with the size of the damage in proximity to the window. Most time only small repairs are allowed within a fixed area around windows.

[Edited 2007-07-31 23:54:03]


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineN231YE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 5 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2257 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 19):
Nope... there is no talk of it being scrapped.

Not exactly...that is the talk around CLE (that is aircraft may never fly again.) As stated, the ARFF was in/currently in talks to purchase the airframe for training.


User currently offline777WT From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 877 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (7 years 5 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2234 times:

I saw the photos of the recovery process and the damage the aircraft has once it's in the hanger.

It's bad enough the skin and stringers from the nose section to near the front of the wings are damaged beyond repair. The floor in the cockpit twisted and pushed upwards. Same goes for the throttle quadart.

The city of CLE gave the recovery team a hard time because they won't let them cut the fence post which they needed to remove otherwise it would cause further damage. After the firefighters insisted on defueling the plane, the recovery went underway.


User currently offlineN231YE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 5 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2226 times:

Quoting N231YE (Reply 18):
Quoting Flight152 (Reply 11):Link? I couldn't find them on the site.
http://www.opshots.net/gallery/displ...?album=lastupby&cat=0&pos=86&uid=1

http://www.opshots.net/gallery/displ...uid=1

Dammit Chuck! Here's the correct addresses:

http://www.opshots.net/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-5038

http://www.opshots.net/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-5025


User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 23, posted (7 years 5 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2209 times:

Quoting N231YE (Reply 20):
Not exactly...that is the talk around CLE (that is aircraft may never fly again.)

Trust me on this one.... my information source is A LOT better then yours



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31712 posts, RR: 56
Reply 24, posted (7 years 5 months 20 hours ago) and read 2174 times:

Quoting 474218 (Reply 10):
When I asked why a skin replacement rather than a simpler patch I was told it was outside the SRM limits and Airbus would not approve repairs outside the SRM.

Wouldn't Airbus approve a Repair Scheme if sent to them prior.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
25 Tdscanuck : They would if 1) the repair scheme works, 2) they have the resources to prove it works, and 3) the customer has the appropriate relationship with Air
26 HAWK21M : No Approval means No repair or is it allowed but Airbus is not responsible for the repair.It should be the latter,Thats how Boeing functions. regds M
27 N231YE : You may be right, after all, this is a rumor... The best way to find out is to go up to the hangar myself and ask one of the mechanics when I have a
28 Tdscanuck : Strictly by the regulations, it means Airbus/Boeing isn't responsible and isn't certifying the repair so you need to get certification from another s
29 Swiftski : There is no photo in our database with that ID number. Back. :S?
30 HAWK21M : Exactly What I was thinking.If the Manufacturer is not confident,who will be. regds MEL
31 TZTriStar500 : But what are you guys saying here? Obviously if one goes to the manufacturer, you are asking for their "buy-in" and regulatory approval of that repai
32 Tdscanuck : You could, there just usually isn't much point. There are two parts to any repair: technical substantiation and regulatory approval. You usually get
33 HAWK21M : If the Manufacturer cannot come up with a repair scheme & an organisation does.What are the chances that the regulatory body will approve it. Im not
34 Tdscanuck : Close to nil for the big regulators. They'd want you to prove not only that your repair is OK but show why the manufacturer is wrong...that's technic
35 HAWK21M : Thats exactly why I think the Regulatory Authorities would not approve a repair that has not god the nod of the Manufacturer. regds MEL
36 TZTriStar500 : I understand this, but I meant when it is obviously beyond the SRM, one would still use its guidelines for the repair design and then substantiate it
37 Tdscanuck : That works to certify the repair for static strength but most modern aircraft are also certified as damage tolerant. It's impossible to do a damage t
38 TZTriStar500 : True and its at that point you send your already approved repair to the manufacturer for the DTA since you generally have 12 months to receive that a
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