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Tiller Use On The Runway  
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4302 times:

I spoke hastily in the Gen_av and got called on it. Now I need to do some hasty fast finding.  Wink

Is the tiller used after lining up for take off? Say at low speeds? Or is it only pedals?


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4291 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Thread starter):
Is the tiller used after lining up for take off? Say at low speeds? Or is it only pedals?

The tiller is used until a specific airspeed when the rudder takes effect due to the air load over it. Every aircraft is different and if I remember from my Saab 340 days they were around 80kts

[Edited 2007-08-04 04:58:35]


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8638 posts, RR: 75
Reply 2, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4250 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Thread starter):

Is the tiller used after lining up for take off? Say at low speeds? Or is it only pedals?



Tiller is used for lineup



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineFr8Mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5094 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4225 times:

Some aircraft allow the rudder pedal steering to be deferred, thus tiller would be used on the runway.


When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9375 posts, RR: 52
Reply 4, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4223 times:

It can depend on the aircraft. The tiller and rudder pedals usually can both control the nose wheel steering. However they do it very differently. The tiller on a modern jet usually allows the nose gear to rotate to about 70 degrees. The rudder pedals only allow the nose gear to rotate about 7-9 degrees. Therefore, the tiller is used for all turns, but once on the runway and straight, the rudder pedals usually are sufficient. Now this can depend on the plane, but usually steering input on the runway should be done with the pedals. The tiller can always be used as a back up, but the rudder pedals cannot back up the tiller.


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8893 posts, RR: 76
Reply 5, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4194 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

As I just posted in the BA RTO thread:

the tiller is used for line up, after that we use the rudder pedals for steering. With the pedals you steer the nose wheel as well, you not only use the rudder. The nose gear turns 7° (IIRC) to the left or right using ONLY the pedals. When airspeed is high enough (80knots) the rudder is affected as well. And those 2 are more than enough to keep the aircraft on the runway during take off run and as well during engine failure during RTO or after V1 to lift off and climb out!
Well, at least it works for 737s and MD11s I am flying... (and not in FS, in real and I always stayed on the runway just using the rudder pedals)

WILCO737 (MD11F)


P.S.: and in 2 hours I will be sitting in my MD11F again, and ONLY using rudder pedals for the take off run...

[Edited 2007-08-04 12:42:38]


It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4183 times:

Generally speaking in commercial aircraft, such as the 747, A320, 777 it's a big NO NO to use the tiller at all during the takeoff run. There is sufficient nosewheel authority through the pedals to control the aircraft prior to 80 knots or so. Beyond that speed the rudder is effective and you don't even think about touching the tiller!

User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31568 posts, RR: 57
Reply 7, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 4106 times:

If the Rudder is Ineffective.The Tiller is used until the Aircraft Speed Increases on the T/O roll.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31568 posts, RR: 57
Reply 8, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 4106 times:

If the Rudder is Ineffective due slow speed.The Tiller is used until the Aircraft Speed Increases on the T/O roll.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2254 posts, RR: 16
Reply 9, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4095 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 7):
If the Rudder is Ineffective.The Tiller is used until the Aircraft Speed Increases on the T/O roll.
regds



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 8):
If the Rudder is Ineffective due slow speed.The Tiller is used until the Aircraft Speed Increases on the T/O roll.
regds

As PhilSquares said..It's a big NO NO (at least in the jets I've flown both small and large) to use the tiller on the t/o roll or ldg roll for that matter. The rudder pedals have some nose wheel steering as well as rudder control. I've never NEVER seen a t/o that required use of tiller up to and including max allowable x-winds.

Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 3):
Some aircraft allow the rudder pedal steering to be deferred, thus tiller would be used on the runway

hey FR8mech can you tell me a jet that can do this? just curious.


User currently offlineFr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5094 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4085 times:

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 9):
hey FR8mech can you tell me a jet that can do this? just curious.

I won't be near an MEL until Wednesday morning. I'll look at it then. Maybe sooner if I can find my MyBoeingFleet login information.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31568 posts, RR: 57
Reply 11, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4067 times:

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 9):
It's a big NO NO (at least in the jets I've flown both small and large) to use the tiller on the t/o roll or ldg roll for that matter.

What would you do if you are not aligned straight & the rudder is ineffective.Would you not use the tiller.

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 9):
Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 3):
Some aircraft allow the rudder pedal steering to be deferred, thus tiller would be used on the runway

hey FR8mech can you tell me a jet that can do this? just curious.

Rudder steering cannot be defferable.What Aircraft are you talking about.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 12, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4061 times:

Thanks to all!
.
.
.
.
.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineFr8Mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5094 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4043 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 11):
Rudder steering cannot be defferable.What Aircraft are you talking about.

Mel, you're talking in absolutes again.

According to the MMEL at MBF:

-B727...Rudder Pedal Nose Wheel Steering. Category C. 1 installed, 0 required. Pilot in the left seat must make take-offs and landings and no other system is affected.

-B737 -Same restrictions

-B747 -Same restrictions except the pilot restriction.

-B747-400 -Same as classic + weather minimums do not require its use.

-B757 - Same as above

-B767 - Same as above

This list is not exhaustive. I'm tired of looking it up. It appears Boeing allows NWS to be deferred on most of its aircraft.

Of course, this is the MMEL. Each operator is free to make their MEL more restrictive.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlineJetlagged From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 24
Reply 14, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4016 times:

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 9):
I've never NEVER seen a t/o that required use of tiller up to and including max allowable x-winds.

Some 747-200s did not have pedal steering, so required tiller during takeoff. Certainly BA aircraft were like this.



The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
User currently offline9VSIO From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 693 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4012 times:
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Just a quick question, when you move the tiller, does the rudder move as well? Or is that only linked to the pedals?


Me: (Lining up on final) I shall now select an aiming point. || Instructor: Well, I hope it's the runway...
User currently offlineJetlagged From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 24
Reply 16, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4007 times:

The tiller does not move the rudder. The pedals are geared to the tiller so that pedal movement moves the tiller, and thus the nosewheel. On Airbus aircraft it's done by a computer, not mechanical linkage.


The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2254 posts, RR: 16
Reply 17, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3984 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 11):
What would you do if you are not aligned straight & the rudder is ineffective.Would you not use the tiller.

I've never been off more than a few degrees and really so what. When you add t/o power you push on the appropriate rudder and t/o.



Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 13):
...Rudder Pedal Nose Wheel Steering. Category C. 1 installed, 0 required. Pilot in the left seat must make take-offs and landings and no other system is affected.

Yes, you are correct...In my 9 yrs in the 727 I never saw it. Also I just referenced our 727 MEL and there is a BIG hit on x-wind and clutter for for dispatch w/o rudder steering. It's not a player. Thanks Fr8Mech for your reference.


User currently offlineSanjet From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 180 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3983 times:

On the twin otter (DHC-6), we will use the tiller to stay aligned with the runway on take off / landing during high crosswind (30-40 kts) as rudder pedals have no direct control on nosewheel at low speeds. Ofcourse, above a certain airspeed, the rudder will be effective enough at which point the tiller is no longer used.


Will Fly For Food!
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31568 posts, RR: 57
Reply 19, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3948 times:

Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 13):
Of course, this is the MMEL. Each operator is free to make their MEL more restrictive.

Any MELs incorporating this.
I'll def check this out,as Im surprised.

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 17):
I've never been off more than a few degrees and really so what. When you add t/o power you push on the appropriate rudder and t/o.

We are not talking of someone thats a few degrees off the cente,but someone much worse.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2254 posts, RR: 16
Reply 20, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3923 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 19):
We are not talking of someone thats a few degrees off the cente,but someone much worse.
regds

Hey HAWK21, I can't imagine why that would happen. If you can't taxi onto the runway and line up within a few degrees you really screwed up TAXI 101. LOL


User currently offlineBellerophon From United Kingdom, joined May 2002, 583 posts, RR: 59
Reply 21, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3831 times:

CosmicCruiser

...As PhilSquares said..It's a big NO NO (at least in the jets I've flown both small and large) to use the tiller on the t/o roll or ldg roll for that matter...

I would agree, where rudder pedal nose wheel steering was fitted, but not all large aircraft were delivered with it fitted, necessitating the use of the tiller on the initial take-off roll, sometimes up to 80 kts.


...I've never NEVER seen a t/o that required use of tiller up to and including max allowable x-winds...

None of BA's B747-100 or B747-200 aircraft ever had rudder pedal nose wheel steering fitted, so all of those take-offs, over twenty years or so, required the use of the tiller, to some degree, in the early part of the take-off roll!

Why they didn't have it fitted, I do not know, because it is a useful feature.

Regards

Bellerophon


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31568 posts, RR: 57
Reply 22, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3789 times:

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 20):
I can't imagine why that would happen. If you can't taxi onto the runway and line up within a few degrees you really screwed up TAXI 101

We have to cater to the worst senario possible.Thats how Flight safety works.right  Smile
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineBoeingfixer From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 524 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 3775 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 22):
Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 20):
I can't imagine why that would happen. If you can't taxi onto the runway and line up within a few degrees you really screwed up TAXI 101

I agree with that coment.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 22):
We have to cater to the worst senario possible.Thats how Flight safety works.right Smile
regds
MEL

Our 727 MEL States that the Rudder Pedal Nose Wheel Steering can be INOP for 10 days. It stresses caution when using the tiller duriing the takeoff roll as over controlling can easily happen.

BTW, Flight Safety is there to do things right the first time... not to salvage a poor take-off line-up or other scenario like that. Taking Flight Safety into account, one would re-allign for takeoff instead.

Cheers,

John



Cheers, John YYC
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