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Using Avgas In Your Vehical?  
User currently offlineFighterPilot From Canada, joined Jun 2005, 1401 posts, RR: 22
Posted (7 years 1 month 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 30053 times:

What are the pros and cons of this? I know several people that do this on a regular basis mixing it with regular gasoline.

Cal  airplane 

P.S. I figured this would be the appropriate board due to the discussion of Aviation Fuel.


*Insert Sound Of GE90 Spooling Up Here*
45 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineN231YE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 4 days ago) and read 30146 times:

Depending on the age of your vehicle, probably not a good idea. Remember, Avgas is leaded, and all of today's vehicles say "Unleaded Fuel Only." Supposedly, the lead will mess with the vehicles' computers, but the known issue is that lead destroys catalytic converters. On the other hand, I used to fly at a flight school with ancient, Precambrian-era refueling trucks, that required leaded fuel. The way around this? Take a "collection bottle" of fuel sump samples and dump them into the tank.  smile 

On a side note, at my university, the dispatchers use an electric golf cart to tow the airplanes around. Story goes, it wasn't always that way. Students and instructors alike used to take sumped fuel samples and dump them into the fuel tank of a gas-powered golf cart. One day, a dispatcher was towing an airplane when I guess it started smoking, then caught on fire, destroying the cart. Oh, and students and instructors are strongly encourages to put samples back into the fuel tanks of the airplane, provided the fuel is "clean and blue."


User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6398 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 month 4 days ago) and read 30128 times:

Well,

If the car is older than about 1974 or so, it might work (for a while).

The pros:

-you can give the engine lots of spark advance, getting more power
-if you're into engine rebuilding, you can also safely crank the compression higher

The cons:
-lead fouling: Avgas only has about 10 times the concentration of tetraethyl lead that automotive gasoline ever had, and your spark plugs will become fouled by it.

My dad has a '64 Ford F-100 with it's original engine, and he mixes 1 part avgas to 9 parts unleaded for fuel. It keeps it running wonderfully

In any automobile newer than 1974, lead will foul the catalytic converter, and in a computer controlled car, lead will also destoy the oxygen sensor

Also, be very very careful here in the 'States: If you are caught running leaded fuel on the road, it's a huge, FEDERAL fine

EDIT: I might add to that last statement that avgas gives the exhaust a very distinct smell, even in small concentrations.

[Edited 2007-08-30 01:13:51]


Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineDrExotica From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 176 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 4 days ago) and read 30115 times:

This is an old muscle car trick - people (and their cars) loved the high octane of avgas. Keep in mind that this is all on pre-74 cars.

The other two posters are correct - the lead will destroy the catalytic converter.



N707PA - Best looking commercial aircraft ever.
User currently offlineFighterPilot From Canada, joined Jun 2005, 1401 posts, RR: 22
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 month 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 30056 times:

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 2):
avgas gives the exhaust a very distinct smell

Yeah, defiantly familiar with that smell.

Quoting DrExotica (Reply 3):
This is an old muscle car trick - people (and their cars) loved the high octane of avgas. Keep in mind that this is all on pre-74 cars.

I know a few snowmachine racers that use just straight avgas for races.

Thanks for the information
Cal  airplane 



*Insert Sound Of GE90 Spooling Up Here*
User currently offlineFLY2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 30053 times:

A kid in my college put straight (sumped) 100LL into his Ford Maverick, the engine ran well, and it smelled even better Big grin

User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6398 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 29997 times:

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 5):
A kid in my college put straight (sumped) 100LL into his Ford Maverick, the engine ran well, and it smelled even better

For a minute I thought you were going to tell us you pumped some of it into your "bochito" Big grin



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offline71Zulu From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3083 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 29985 times:

Don't think there is any law against using leaded fuel on the street since you can still buy tetraethyl lead and add it to your pump gas to make a leaded brew for older high compression engines, but the main problem is there are no road taxes built into the price of avgas so using avgas on the street would be like using off-road diesel on the street, and if caught the fines are in the $1,000 range per violation.


The good old days: Delta L-1011s at MSY
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6398 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 29984 times:

Quoting 71Zulu (Reply 7):
Don't think there is any law against using leaded fuel on the street since you can still buy tetraethyl lead and add it to your pump gas to make a leaded brew for older high compression engines, but the main problem is there are no road taxes built into the price of avgas so using avgas on the street would be like using off-road diesel on the street, and if caught the fines are in the $1,000 range per violation.

Might want to check this site out:

http://www.epa.gov/EPA-AIR/1996/February/Day-02/pr-1326.html

 Smile



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29802 posts, RR: 58
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 29954 times:

I knew a guy who ran some purple fuel in his truck one time,

Said it burned "REALLY" smoothly.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineAnalog From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 29915 times:

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 8):
Might want to check this site out:

http://www.epa.gov/EPA-AIR/1996/Febr....html

My brief scanning of this document indicates that introducing leaded gasoline/gasoline additives "into commerce" is banned. How does this ban putting avgas into your car for personal use?

Not that I support doing such a thing; the ban is there for good reasons.


User currently offlineDeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 29870 times:

EPA...what a joke.

Back in my old FBO days, we would sump the trucks every morning....somehow though, the 100LL truck would always lose about 15-20 gallons a week, and we couldn't figure out how. We never pumped 100LL as we had little non-jet traffic at this field.

Finally figgured out it was one of our GSE mechs, just coming in at night and taking out a little bit at a time, for his racecar he was building at home that ran on 100LL. Good for him, but the company didn't see it that way.

DeltaGuy


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 29857 times:

That would be 100 octane.....wouldn't that be higher chances of Detonation & lead fouling.

regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineAirfoilsguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 month 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 29846 times:

You could always buy racing fuel. It is street legal and has an octane of about 104. I but it in my bike and you can tell the difference. It also has a sweet smell.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 9):
I knew a guy who ran some purple fuel in his truck one time,

That sounds like Turbo Blue racing gas.


User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 month 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 29826 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 12):
That would be 100 octane.....wouldn't that be higher chances of Detonation & lead fouling.

Lead fouling would be an issue, yes. But 100 octane is higher than any normal gasoline you can get at the pump so chances of detonation should go down.

Tom.


User currently offlineRalgha From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 1614 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 29776 times:

Purple avgas isn't made anymore, and for civilian use, it was only made to order. It was 115/145 octane, where as the current low-lead (blue) is 100/130, and it had more than double the lead.

[Edited 2007-08-30 20:06:25]


09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6924 posts, RR: 46
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 month 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 29767 times:

Quoting Ralgha (Reply 15):
Purple avgas isn't made anymore, and for civilian use, it was only made to order. It was 115/145 octane, where as the current low-lead (blue) is 100/130, and it had more than double the lead.

100LL is blue; I was under the impression that 100/130 was a different animal (don't know what color) and it had twice the lead that 100LL does. 115/145 is another creature entirely; wasn't that what the piston engine airliners used as well as the military? It had MUCH more lead.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineRalgha From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 1614 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 month 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 29742 times:

100/130 is green, 100LL is actually 100/130 they just dropped the rich rating from the name for simplicity in naming I think. Like I said, 115/145 was purple, isn't made any more, and was pretty much only for military and specialized civilian use.

100/130 (green) and 100LL (blue) are basically the same except 100LL has half as much lead.

There is a new purple avgas being made, which is 82 octane and unleaded. That may be what someone saw added to a car, but I don't see what the benefit of doing so would be. The old purple avgas probably would make the car explode.  bomb 



09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6398 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 month 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 29739 times:

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 16):
I was under the impression that 100/130 was a different animal (don't know what color) and it had twice the lead that 100LL does.

Green  Smile And yes, indeed, the LL in 100LL means 1/2 the lead content of 100/130 Octane. BTW, when I last flew a plane down to Mexico (at CUU), 100/130 was alive and well, and I had the Cessna 210 that I borrowed for the trip fueled up with it.



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29802 posts, RR: 58
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 month 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 29675 times:

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 16):
115/145 is another creature entirely; wasn't that what the piston engine airliners used as well as the military? It had MUCH more lead.

The purple gas he ended up with was recovered from a 1950's era underground storage tank at an airport that was used as a refueling stop on the way to Japan.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineFLY2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 month 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 29659 times:

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 6):
For a minute I thought you were going to tell us you pumped some of it into your "bochito"

O great, I have another myspace stalker  scared 

 Wink

I was actually tempted to do it, the Mexican bugs have no catalytic converter, and I could just unscrew the O2 sensor off. There's another sensor in the exhaust but I'm not sure what it's for.

Anyways, if it wasn't for those 2 things, I'd do it in a heartbeat.


User currently offlineN231YE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 month 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 29643 times:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 19):
The purple gas he ended up with was recovered from a 1950's era underground storage tank at an airport that was used as a refueling stop on the way to Japan.

But doesn't all fuel have a limited "shelf life"?

Also, if my memory serves me right, someone here once stated that 115/145 fuel was created in small batches every so often...is this true?


User currently offlineAnalog From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 month 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 29618 times:

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 20):

I was actually tempted to do it, the Mexican bugs have no catalytic converter, and I could just unscrew the O2 sensor off. There's another sensor in the exhaust but I'm not sure what it's for.

Two oxygen sensors, one before the catalytic converter, one after. The second one determines if the catalytic converter is working (if not, the check engine light goes on). The converter should use oxygen, thus the second sensor should see a lower concentration than the first, which is used to determine if the engine runs rich or lean.

Oxygen sensors basically give one of two signals: too rich or too lean. Nothing in between (sort of; they have very high gain). The two signals are averaged over time to get the mixture to the correct level.

A car can run fine w/o the 2nd oxygen sensor, but the first is important to the correct functioning of the engine. (I think)


User currently offlineFLY2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 month 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 29616 times:

Quoting Analog (Reply 22):
Two oxygen sensors, one before the catalytic converter, one after. The second one determines if the catalytic converter is working (if not, the check engine light goes on). The converter should use oxygen, thus the second sensor should see a lower concentration than the first, which is used to determine if the engine runs rich or lean.

That was my theory. Though I guess in my beetle the only purpose is for leaning, as there is no cat in the exhaust.


User currently offlineDeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 month 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 29579 times:

Quoting Analog (Reply 22):
A car can run fine w/o the 2nd oxygen sensor, but the first is important to the correct functioning of the engine. (I think)

Correct- on my Camaro SS I had the cats removed (no one in FL cares), so I had the rear 02's "simmed out", and the 1st one I obviously retained as it gives the engine an idea of the oxygen content post-ignition. The rear 02's are not necessary unless you're running that cat.

DeltaGuy


25 Post contains images BAe146QT : Here in the UK, BP sell a 104RON racing fuel at some forecourts, believe it or not. To be fair, these forecourts tend to be in areas where; a) There
26 Ralgha : Yes, but avgas is specifically designed to have a very long shelf life (don't know if it's that long though). One of the differences between it and m
27 KELPkid : Didn't the Mexico City ("Mexico D.F") bugs actually have a cat? My friend who did industrial design for all of the car factories in Puebla told me th
28 Post contains images FLY2HMO : Honestly, I'm not sure, that's actually the first time I hear that. I've heard there are some kits for making bugs more eco-friendly, but all the [bu
29 ThirtyEcho : Very many years ago, as a 17 year-old lineboy, I closed the FBO where I worked at night and realized that my car was low on gas for the drive home. Si
30 Tod : Generally speaking, running a higher octane than you need to prevent detonation will not increase performance. As stated above, the performace gains c
31 Post contains links Analog : I'm sure you're are aware that this illegal, even if FL doesn't care. Any shop that works on any part of your car's exhaust system associated with th
32 Prebennorholm : AVGAS 100LL was formulated some 25 years ago in order to replace two grades - AVGAS 80/87 and AVGAS 100/130 - by one single grade. 80/87 contained ver
33 Post contains links Analog : One would certainly hope so. All joking aside, cars typically can make it up to 14,000 ft w/o problems. No as to long term operation... ? Translation
34 Prebennorholm : In most European countries lead additive (tetraethyl lead - TEL) was gradually phased out of MOGAS, from typically 0.80 - 0.90 mL TEL/L when unrestri
35 Analog : So 100LL has 0.50mL/L TEL vs. 0.8 - 0.9mL/L for leaded car gasoline (I was talking about the historical meaning of "leaded gasoline")... same order o
36 Prebennorholm : Absolutely right, Analog. In a historic perspective AVGAS and MOGAS had very equal lead contents. Originally AVGAS 100/130 and MOGAS were both close t
37 Post contains links and images Analog : And car engine designs are not 50 years old. The difference in Germany (and the rest of Europe/the world?) is that octane numbers are specified in RO
38 Prebennorholm : Thats right, Analog. It is most confusing that there are three different test methods giving three different values of octane numbers: Aviation world
39 Analog : What's wrong with pure ethanol? Obviously the water problem, mixtures would have to be adjusted, and that it would not work with current engines (sea
40 Prebennorholm : Nothing wrong with ethanol (except if we drink too much of it). But in addition to the disadvantages you mention there are a few more serious disadva
41 AussieAMEgirl : I remember doing a major servicing on a DC3 a few years ago and we had to drain the tanks. Of course the AVGAS found its way into 44 gallon drums and
42 Post contains images KELPkid : Well, the US has defined a new avgas spec, 82UL, which is basically tightly controlled mogas (minus the "wierd" additives that local refineries add t
43 Tod : Undyed gas would hard for the tax man to detect when used on the road. Tod
44 ZBBYLW : I believe it is done once a year for the Reno Air Races. Ummm do you have a diesel car? My friend uses Jet-A in his VW Rabbit.
45 BAe146QT : A good guess, but no. All three of mine are petrol/gasoline. What I was referring to was running a small shot of kero through with a tank of fuel to
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