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MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?  
User currently offlineReadytotaxi From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 3180 posts, RR: 2
Posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7624 times:

Hi, just watch a video of a KLM MD11 landing in Ecuador and can not understand the amount of flap used to stop the aircraft, is this normal? Never flown on one. You could not have anymore out there unless the stewardess hung the blankets on the line, is it that the norm because air is thinner there, amazed.


you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7629 times:

Flaps 35 is norm, max is flaps 50. Flaps 50 shortens rollout by about 500'.

User currently offlineReadytotaxi From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 3180 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7628 times:

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 1):

Thanks,looks plus 35



you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 7558 times:

Isn't the MD-11 (and the DC-10, since both basically share the same wing) the aircraft with the highest flap setting in the world? I know the 727 and 737 have settings up to flaps 40, but that setting was rarely used, flaps 30 seemed to be more the standard setting for a landing configuration.

So, for the sake of discussion, what effects would it have if the MD-11 and DC-10 had double-slotted flaps instead of the one-slotted flaps they already have. Could this have drastically reduced also the final approach speed, given that with the current flaps, the MD-11 requires very high approach speeds when compared to other widebodies?


User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8968 posts, RR: 76
Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 7523 times:
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Quoting LTU932 (Reply 3):
So, for the sake of discussion, what effects would it have if the MD-11 and DC-10 had double-slotted flaps instead of the one-slotted flaps they already have. Could this have drastically reduced also the final approach speed, given that with the current flaps, the MD-11 requires very high approach speeds when compared to other widebodies?

If you use flaps 50° the aircraft is a little shaking because of the very high amount of drag. And yes, the approach speeds are really high! At Max Landing weight (222.9 tons at LH Carg) you have a Vref of 163 which gives you a Vappr of 168... Pretty fast if you ask me... But its fun Big grin

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13967 posts, RR: 63
Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 7505 times:

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 3):
Isn't the MD-11 (and the DC-10, since both basically share the same wing) the aircraft with the highest flap setting in the world? I know the 727 and 737 have settings up to flaps 40, but that setting was rarely used, flaps 30 seemed to be more the standard setting for a landing configuration.

First, the MD-11 has a completely redesigned wing and in this aspect has very little in common with the DC-10 (except the mechanics).
On the Douglas planes, the flap setting is given in degrees deflction, while on the Boeings the numbers are just units.

Jan


User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 7487 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 5):
First, the MD-11 has a completely redesigned wing and in this aspect has very little in common with the DC-10 (except the mechanics).

I stand corrected. But still, regarding my question, what would be the effect on the MD-11's performance in a landing configuration if they used double-slotted (or even triple-slotted) flaps instead of the one-slotted flaps?


User currently offlinePhxpilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 80 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 7487 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 5):
On the Douglas planes, the flap setting is given in degrees deflction, while on the Boeings the numbers are just units.

Uhhh...noooo. Are you sure you are not thinking of Airbus?


User currently offlineJetlagged From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 2543 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 7486 times:

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 3):
So, for the sake of discussion, what effects would it have if the MD-11 and DC-10 had double-slotted flaps instead of the one-slotted flaps they already have.

Surely the DC-10 and MD-11 have double slotted flaps already?


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The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13967 posts, RR: 63
Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 7474 times:

Quoting Phxpilot (Reply 7):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 5):
On the Douglas planes, the flap setting is given in degrees deflction, while on the Boeings the numbers are just units.

Uhhh...noooo. Are you sure you are not thinking of Airbus?

Yes, I am sure. The manuals for the 737 just speak of units, just numbers. They don't speak of any degrees and from what I remember from flap rigging, the numbers don't correspond to degrees deflection.
The same applis to the 727, 757 and 767, and IIRC the 747 classic.
This might be because the Boeing fowler flaps extend first aft before deflecting downwards.

Douglas flaps are just hinged and deflect directly.

Jan


User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 7446 times:

Quoting Phxpilot (Reply 7):
Uhhh...noooo. Are you sure you are not thinking of Airbus?

I presume you're confusing it because Airbus has a different terminology for flap setting (e.g. Flaps 1, Flaps 1+F, Flaps 2, etc.), while Boeing uses e.g. Flaps 1, Flaps 5, Flaps 15, etc.

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 8):
Surely the DC-10 and MD-11 have double slotted flaps already?

Visually, it looks odd, because it looks more one-slotted to the naked eye then double-slotted, or I'm simply too used to Boeing's standard double-slotted flaps.  Silly

Seriously though, I always thought of those flaps as one-slotted and never double-slotted, because it visually looks like one-slotted, at least at first glance.


User currently offlineReadytotaxi From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 3180 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 7298 times:

Okay people here is the video link,
http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircra...rline_KLM_Aviation_Video-4845.html

Looks like a lot of flap to me.



you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8968 posts, RR: 76
Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 7264 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting Readytotaxi (Reply 11):

Yeah, this looks like flaps 50° here for sure. And in Quito (high elevation) you want to reduce the touchdown speed as much as you can to avoid hot brakes and reduce the landing distance.
I remember an approach to NBO and it was a normal day with pretty high weight and the tochdown speed was 184 knots (Ground speed)! and this was already flaps 50°... with flaps 35° it would be about 5 knots higher...

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 7228 times:

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 12):
I remember an approach to NBO and it was a normal day with pretty high weight and the tochdown speed was 184 knots (Ground speed)! and this was already flaps 50°... with flaps 35° it would be about 5 knots higher...

What's the max tyre speed on standard tyres and highspeed tyres on the MD-11? Or does the MD-11 use by default highspeed tyres?


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13967 posts, RR: 63
Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 7217 times:

The MD-11 flaps have a small, spring loaded foreflap mounted to them, which is, in retracted position, hidden inside the rear spare area. Thus it is a double slotted flap.

BTW, the MD-11 flaps are huge. If they are extended on ground, the indoard flap trailing edge is only about 1.5 meters off the ground.

Jan


User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 7212 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 14):
The MD-11 flaps have a small, spring loaded foreflap mounted to them, which is, in retracted position, hidden inside the rear spare area. Thus it is a double slotted flap.

Thanks. That clears it up for good.


User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 16, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 7208 times:

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 12):
remember an approach to NBO and it was a normal day with pretty high weight and the tochdown speed was 184 knots (Ground speed)! and this was already flaps 50°...

That seems REALLY REALLY fast. I've landeed at max ldg wgt and flaps 35 and never seen more than about 168 IAS. You're saying this was grd spd so did you have a tail wind?

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 13):
What's the max tyre speed on standard tyres and highspeed tyres on the MD-11?

204kts

In the sim doing a flap retract app & ldg you's see 190kts and you're smoking!


User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 7202 times:

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 16):
That seems REALLY REALLY fast. I've landeed at max ldg wgt and flaps 35 and never seen more than about 168 IAS. You're saying this was grd spd so did you have a tail wind?

Don't forget that NBO is a high altitude airport at over 5000 ft high. Maybe the high altitude helped increase the groundspeed along with other asociated factors like e.g. a tailwind.


User currently offlineJetlagged From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 2543 posts, RR: 24
Reply 18, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 7198 times:

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 16):
That seems REALLY REALLY fast. I've landeed at max ldg wgt and flaps 35 and never seen more than about 168 IAS. You're saying this was grd spd so did you have a tail wind?

Nairobi is 5,330 feet elevation. At this altitude if IAS was 168 knots, GS would be 182 knots in still air. A couple of knots tailwind gives the GS rmentioned.



The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7171 times:

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 18):
At this altitude if IAS was 168 knots, GS would be 182 knots in still air

Yep. TAS & GS would be the same in still air. I didn't know NBO nor its elev. But you can see my confusion that the app. speed was given as a GS and I assumed that at that wgt I sure would do my best not to have a tailwind. The MD-11 is certainly a fast jet on app but 184 shocked me.....  Wow!


User currently offlineWILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8968 posts, RR: 76
Reply 20, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7090 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 13):
What's the max tyre speed on standard tyres and highspeed tyres on the MD-11?

204 kts

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 16):
That seems REALLY REALLY fast. I've landeed at max ldg wgt and flaps 35 and never seen more than about 168 IAS. You're saying this was grd spd so did you have a tail wind?

Yeah, the high elevation and we use a higher max landing weight as you guys do (222.9 tons) and there were slight tailwind on that day... so thats why we had a little over 180kts groundspeed upon touchdown...
Just got back home from a FERRY flight to EMA, TOW only 150tons, what an incredible climb performance Big grin Big grin

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineMusapapaya From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1075 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 7046 times:

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 20):
Just got back home from a FERRY flight to EMA, TOW only 150tons, what an incredible climb performance

Hey WILCO737,

A silly question I know but I always wonder, and want to have your personal opinions, when you fly a frieghter just like what you do now, do you fly in a different manner than flying a passenger flight, just like you did on a 737? The reason I asked is when I was at Manchester spotting, I saw frieghters landing so hard even on quite a clam day when other planes flare slowly. Since you flew both therefore your professional comments would be valuable!

Thanks!
William



Lufthansa Group of Airlines
User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 22, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 7031 times:

Quoting Musapapaya (Reply 21):
when you fly a frieghter just like what you do now, do you fly in a different manner than flying a passenger flight, just like you did on a 737?

No not really any difference...all the same .....having said that and it's been discussed here before we do have the opportunity to fly perhaps a little more agressively than a pax flight just for the reason there's no one walking around. I purely mean just little things like perhaps leveling at 10,000' pulling full speed brakes slowing rapidly then descending or configuring a little later in order to keep the speed up, nothing really more than that. Remember we still have the same limitations that we must operate under.


[

Quoting Musapapaya (Reply 21):
when I was at Manchester spotting, I saw frieghters landing so hard even on quite a clam day when other planes flare slowly.

Then you must have missed my landing at MAN last week!  Silly
There really shouldn't be any difference.


User currently offlineMusapapaya From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1075 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 7026 times:

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 22):
Then you must have missed my landing at MAN last week!
There really shouldn't be any difference.

Oh I wasnt there last week. Just out of interest and if you dont mind telling me, who do you work for, then I can look at you next time?



Lufthansa Group of Airlines
User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 24, posted (6 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 7014 times:

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 20):
TOW only 150tons, what an incredible climb performance

Yes, and V1 & Vr are coming very quickly aren't they? I've seen it a few times. We do CDG-FRA and it's a very light flight. zoooom or as I say "yeee haaa!"


25 Post contains images WILCO737 : Well, I fly the same way... doesnt matter to me... I like it smooth and comfortable for myself Yeah, it was like back on the 737... V1 and Vr the sam
26 Post contains links and images JAGflyer : Full flaps on the MD-11 are 50. They droop very low down compared to other aircraft. View Large View MediumPhoto © Johan Kellerman View Large Vie
27 Flyer732 : I've had a few ATL-AGS, ATL-CAE and similar ferry flights....block out fuel of like 40.0 by the time you realize that the throttles are being moved f
28 Aaron747 : You mean you can't make an educated guess as to CC's employer? It's pretty obvious...
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