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Select Parking Brake Instead Of Flaps?  
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7714 posts, RR: 21
Posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3798 times:

Just read this about a tyre burst incident at LBA in January.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yorkshire/6992741.stm

Is it easy to make that mistake?

Has this happened before?


✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinePilotaydin From Turkey, joined Sep 2004, 2539 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3785 times:

hahah all levers and handles on the bus are small and similar  Wink compared to a boeing, so yeah technically you could do that, BUT, im not sure if you have to press the brakes in to set the brake on the bus. You do on the Boeing...

the article says it all, it's got nothing to do with the airplane...it says the pilot was distracted from a previous incident...case and point, flying is 100% psychology...



The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
User currently offlineHelvknight From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3774 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
Has this happened before?

According to the story there have been 5 incidents worldwide on the A320 series.

Given the number of A320 flights that's not a lot.


User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7707 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3740 times:

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19930914-2

My understanding from this crash was that there was a sensor on the undercarriage strut to detect whether the plane was on the ground, linked to the Thrust Reversers. Could it not activate a caption/horn if brakes locked with no ground pressure.

Equally, is there no visual indication of flap position. My assumption is that the flap levers would have to be accessible, (and visible) to both pilots.


User currently offlineDeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3733 times:

I'm confused, the article mentions "tyres"...what are those?  Wink

DeltaGuy


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7714 posts, RR: 21
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3672 times:

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 4):
I'm confused, the article mentions "tyres"...what are those? Wink

DeltaGuy

I can sympathise, my friend. I suffer from a similar confusion whenever people start writing about 'airplanes'. What the hell are they?  Big grin



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 6085 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3634 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 5):
I suffer from a similar confusion whenever people start writing about 'airplanes'.

Why, to let people know what specific type of airCRAFT they are talking about, my dear Watson.



Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
User currently offlineEFHK From Finland, joined Nov 2006, 392 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3368 times:

Finnair had a similar incident with an EMB-170, I think two tires burst.


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User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6971 posts, RR: 46
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3326 times:

The report on the LH crash cited says that the regular brakes have sensors to prevent them from being activated until the plane is firmly on the ground, but the parking brake must bypass all of them in order for the present incident to happen.

Quoting Helvknight (Reply 2):
According to the story there have been 5 incidents worldwide on the A320 series.

Given the number of A320 flights that's not a lot.

I would disagree; the cost of a complete set of tires is not insignificant, especially if the wheels are damaged as well, as they probably would be. Five incidents is definitely too many. It shouldn't be difficult to add a sensor into the parking brake circuit to prevent it from being applied unless the plane is at least on the ground.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineVC-10 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 1999, 3702 posts, RR: 34
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3228 times:
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Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 1):
all levers and handles on the bus are small and similar compared to a boeing, so yeah technically you could do that, BUT, I'm not sure if you have to press the brakes in to set the brake on the bus.

To apply the park brake on a 'Bus you twist the handle at the back of the pedestal. To lower the flaps you lift the flap lever located at the fwd RHS of the pedestal and pull it back. I fail to see how the two can be confused.

The Park Brake is the emergency brake which if set in the air will remain off until the ground spoilers have deployed


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7714 posts, RR: 21
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3167 times:

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 8):
I would disagree; the cost of a complete set of tires is not insignificant, especially if the wheels are damaged as well, as they probably would be. Five incidents is definitely too many.

I agree. Admittedly as a proportion of all flights it is low, but in the world of civil aviation five similar incidents such as those is definitely five too many. Which other aircraft have had this happen other than the E170 mentioned above?



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineJetlagged From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 2565 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3156 times:

There is touchdown protection on the parking brake, so the brakes aren't applied until touchdown. However it also bypasses the anti-skid system (as is usual), so when they are applied the effect is dramatic.

Boeings are different, in that you have to apply the toe brakes, then set the parking brake with a separate lever. The lever itself does not apply the brakes. Airbus is not alone in having a combined parking/emergency brake though, but the Airbus parking brake is ridiculously easy to set at any time. Clearly not idiot pilot proof.

I agree with VC10, there is no explicable reason for the confusion, the two controls look different, feel different and move differently.

Apparently:

Quote:
Investigators believe the pilot was distracted because he had experienced a bad landing at Leeds Bradford before.

Remind me not to fly BMI to such "scary" airports.



The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
User currently offlineAirfoilsguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3153 times:

I think the whole article is screwed up. The article states that the pilot ment to select full flaps but instead set the parking break. If this was so wouldn't it be obvious to the pilot that the flaps were not set? Think about it, you are landing a plane that you assume has full flaps deployed, what is going to happen? As you approach touch down speed you will notice that your sink rate is increasing due to improper flap selection. Doesn't make sense to me.

User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9525 posts, RR: 42
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3139 times:

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 11):
I agree with VC10

I'm jumping on that bandwagon. The parking brake is the small black handle right at the back of the pedestal. It's turned through 90o to operate:

Parking brake on...

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Borut Smrdelj



Parking brake off...

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Adam Wright



The flap lever is just to the right of the lower ECAM display, in about the same place as you'll find it in most other airliners.


User currently offlineCALPilot From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 999 posts, RR: 13
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3122 times:

Quoting David L (Reply 13):
The flap lever is just to the right of the lower ECAM display, in about the same place as you'll find it in most other airliners.

Excuse me?


User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9525 posts, RR: 42
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3107 times:

Quoting CALPilot (Reply 14):
Excuse me?

Oh bollocks! I was reading another thread about the wheel on the gear handle and still had that lever in mind when I dug out the photos. Sorry about that.  wideeyed 

Um... anyway, as VC-10 says, the parking brake is further back and operated differently.  embarrassed 


User currently offlineOnetogo From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 314 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3053 times:

Republic did in an E170. Hopefully Embraer released some sort of software upgrade to inhibit something like that from happening again.

pics: http://www.dauntless-soft.com/PRODUCTS/Freebies/USAirParkingBrake/


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7714 posts, RR: 21
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3010 times:

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 6):
Why, to let people know what specific type of airCRAFT they are talking about, my dear Watson.

Ah, you mean the difference between helicopters and AEROPLANES?  Smile



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineMusapapaya From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1093 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2992 times:

Quoting Onetogo (Reply 16):
Republic did in an E170. Hopefully Embraer released some sort of software upgrade to inhibit something like that from happening again.

Good job, thats a very short landing roll!



Lufthansa Group of Airlines
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7714 posts, RR: 21
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2978 times:

Quoting Musapapaya (Reply 18):
Good job, thats a very short landing roll!

I wonder if that's what the company said to the flight crew?  Smile



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
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