Sponsor Message:
Aviation Technical / Operations Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Non-standard R/T - Nearly Killed You?  
User currently offline6YJJK From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2755 times:

This morning I was thinking about an experience I had some years back, where non-standard radio phraseology could've (if combined with pilot stupidity) produced disastrous consequences. I'm sure there are lots of stories like this - what's yours?

Mine was at Perth (EGPT), where I used to work. As you can see from the link, the runways there are laid out in a triangle, and on this day, like most days, we were using 21 - so we were holding on the grass up by the threshold. The run-up was all done, and we were ready for departure.

Then Air Traffic changed the runway to 27 (which was then 28). This would've involved our taxiing back to the threshold of 16, then down the "grass taxiway" which used to run to about the midpoint of 27, holding to cross 27, taxiing all around the "kidney" taxiway and finally bouncing over the rough grass to holding point D - and that's what Air Traffic told us to do.

My instructor turned us round and started us on this trek. As we passed 16, Air Traffic called us up: "c/s, you can use the grass runway if you like." My instructor replied, "c/s thanks," and lined us up... then just kept chugging along, not adding any power, and - no flaps, for a soft field take-off? Huh? What's he doing? Oh.

Had I been solo, I'd have taken off without clearance, right across the landing traffic for 27.

Of course, it's never as simple as "shouldn't have said that", "shouldn't have done that"... These were the things I thought were pertinent:

  • "...use the grass runway..." - what else do you use a runway for?
  • As I say, I used to work there - so cups of tea in the tower and first-name terms all round. That, and the fact that two qualified pilots didn't need the same mollycoddling as the others on the frequency (early solo students), probably contributed to the informality.
  • Not only was I newly qualified, but this was only my second or third flight out of Perth... and it took many more before my instructor and I agreed I should be turned loose, due to the difference in procedures and sheer volume of traffic.
  • In fact, I'd qualified abroad and had rarely encountered ATC at all. In 55 hours, I was "cleared for take-off" 3 times - those magic words just weren't something that even occurred to me as being necessary yet.  blush 

So quite a few contributory factors, but the non-standard R/T would've set the ball rolling. I'm just glad my instructor was driving.

I was very quiet for the rest of that taxi - and for most of the flight.

12 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineFuturecaptain From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2733 times:

Quoting 6YJJK (Thread starter):
where non-standard radio phraseology could've (if combined with pilot stupidity) produced disastrous consequences.

The Tenerife crash is a good example of what can happen when standard phaseology is not followed.


User currently offlineRyanair737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2658 times:

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 1):
The Tenerife crash is a good example of what can happen when standard phaseology is not followed.

Or when pilots of one aircraft are in a hurry.


User currently offlineThirtyEcho From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 1643 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2427 times:

We need to do away with "copy" and "copy that" from all of those astronauts out there who really should be saying "roger." And I don't mean "roger that."

The term "copy that" is used in spaceflight in response to instructions from Mission Control to perform certain detailed functions aboard ship. That could be instructions for garbage disposal, re-entry platform programming or flushing the toilet; it indicates that the the astronaut has written it down in detail, as commanded and in sequence.

There is never a reason to use "copy that" when the tower tells a C172 to enter a right downwind for runway 35 right.


User currently offlineBoeingOnFinal From Norway, joined Apr 2006, 476 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 2347 times:

And you don't say "Roger" either, you repeat the clearance/instruction.


norwegianpilot.blogspot.com
User currently offlineCancidas From Poland, joined Jul 2003, 4112 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2309 times:

"copy" is useful for ammended instrcutions or non-atc type transmissions. we usually use it when communicating with aircraft in holds for extended periods of time who need to have alternates approved and fuel burns and totals relayed to them. it's widely used on the in-house radios when communicating with those on the ramp. "roger" can serve the same purpose as above, though we tend to use the two interchangeably.

as for me, i had instructors drill into my head that standard terminology is the way to speak with anyone really, be it our ground crews when on the intercom or with atc now in the civilian world. goofing around on the radio is best saved for company frequecies.



"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21515 posts, RR: 55
Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2263 times:

Quoting ThirtyEcho (Reply 3):
There is never a reason to use "copy that" when the tower tells a C172 to enter a right downwind for runway 35 right.

There is never a reason to use "roger" in that situation either.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineCanadianNorth From Canada, joined Aug 2002, 3389 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2080 times:

Well I'm no expert, but driving in the controlled areas with our van I've never used "copy" or "roger". Always reply/call off/etc with all the appropriate details. Hasn't caused any problems that I know of sofar...


CanadianNorth



What could possibly go wrong?
User currently offlineNbgskygod From United States of America, joined May 2004, 795 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1959 times:

I've lost count how many times I have asked a yes or no question and gotten a "roger" or "copy that" in response. It simply comes down to listening and responding to the question asked. If a controller gives an instruction or some pertanent information, read it back, lets everyone know you got the information.


"I use multi-billion dollar military satellite systems to find tupperware in the woods."
User currently offlineAauzou From Australia, joined Jun 2007, 28 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 1640 times:

I was flying a downwind leg for rwy 17 at YMMB and when i gave my downwind call and intentions tower gave me my traffic info, told me there was an C172 on late downwind no sooner than the controller had finished speaking I saw an aircraft comming towards me on a downwind for the oposite rwy 35, i veered to the right and tower had a nut at the other pilot, that was close.

Another time I was overflying the lilydale CTAF at OFly height and and aircraft doing circuits at lilydale at overfly height was'nt giving any radio calls at all again a very close call.

Regards
760611


User currently offlineWoodreau From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1023 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1583 times:

Some one said "Repeat" instead of "Say Again" and got another full broadside from the battleship that was sitting offshore. That was back in the late 80's

I guess in aviation saying "Repeat" isn't so bad, but "Say Again" came into RT usage which carried over into aviation because "Repeat" today still means to re-shoot the last fire mission in artillery or naval bombardment.



Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
User currently offlineBsergonomics From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2002, 462 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 10 hours ago) and read 1405 times:

See:

http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...pe=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=2851

It was a fatal accident involving G-BABB - one of the aircraft in which I learned to fly - which resulted in part from non-standard RT procedures. The pilot was on his second solo flight.

RIP



The definition of a 'Pessimist': an Optimist with experience...
User currently offlineCanadianNorth From Canada, joined Aug 2002, 3389 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (6 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1310 times:

On a related note, I have a question about ground communications.

I was always taught, usually hear, and always call off as "Whitehorse ground (or Whitehorse radio, depending on what time it is), ---- -- is clear of echo and on the apron". However, last night we were behind the tractor and their full call off was simply "Air North 76 is on the apron". Is that technecally correct, or was he cutting it a little shorter than what one should?


CanadianNorth



What could possibly go wrong?
Top Of Page
Forum Index

Reply To This Topic Non-standard R/T - Nearly Killed You?
Username:
No username? Sign up now!
Password: 


Forgot Password? Be reminded.
Remember me on this computer (uses cookies)
  • Tech/Ops related posts only!
  • Not Tech/Ops related? Use the other forums
  • No adverts of any kind. This includes web pages.
  • No hostile language or criticizing of others.
  • Do not post copyright protected material.
  • Use relevant and describing topics.
  • Check if your post already been discussed.
  • Check your spelling!
  • DETAILED RULES
Add Images Add SmiliesPosting Help

Please check your spelling (press "Check Spelling" above)


Similar topics:More similar topics...
Channel Islands CTR - Why So Big / Non-standard? posted Fri Sep 6 2002 12:53:02 by Ben
How Do You Find Aircraft For Acmi Or Charter? posted Sun Aug 19 2007 18:49:28 by A380US
How Do You Taxi To The Runway? (pic) posted Wed Aug 15 2007 23:46:06 by Aeroflot777
What Do You Call This... posted Fri Jul 27 2007 08:46:52 by Blackbird
AMERICAN/AMERICAN Eagle NON REV Travel posted Thu Jun 21 2007 03:41:57 by JETBLUEATASW
Southwest Pilots - Do You Turn Left After Takeoff? posted Tue Jun 19 2007 13:08:03 by ORFflyer
ATL Ground Ops Delays 6/11/07 - Standard? posted Tue Jun 12 2007 22:26:07 by SEAdomer787
How Do You Aim A Localizer Antenna? posted Wed Jun 6 2007 19:34:01 by Timz
You Won't Get There Any Faster... posted Fri Jun 1 2007 19:44:14 by BAe146QT
Can You Have A "Zero" Groundspeed...? posted Thu May 17 2007 23:38:38 by Boston92

Sponsor Message:
Printer friendly format