KELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 5929 posts, RR: 4 Posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 7793 times:
Well, I think the title says it all
One of the more obscure provisions of maritime law (upon which many provisions of aviation law are based) is that a captain at sea, in international waters, can perform a marriage.
Obviously, I'd think it would have to be an international flight over international waters, but could an aircraft captain perform such duties?
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
TheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3347 posts, RR: 30 Reply 1, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7799 times:
The answer depends on the country under which the airplane is registered.
For Germany, the answer is no. That is, because a ship captain isn't allowed to do so under German law either.
I think in other countries with more liberal rules on marriage, it might be possible. Generally, the legal status of an airplane captain and the captain of a ship is very similiar.
David L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9212 posts, RR: 42 Reply 2, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7797 times:
Quoting KELPkid (Thread starter): One of the more obscure provisions of maritime law (upon which many provisions of aviation law are based) is that a captain at sea, in international waters, can perform a marriage.
Isn't that a myth... in most cases, anyway? It's all very well performing a marriage in international waters but would it be recognised ashore in many countries? Obviously some Captains may hold the requisite qualifications over and above their Captaincy, of course.
TheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3347 posts, RR: 30 Reply 3, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7794 times:
Quoting David L (Reply 2): Isn't that a myth... in most cases, anyway? It's all very well performing a marriage in international waters but would it be recognised ashore in many countries? Obviously some Captains may hold the requisite qualifications over and above their Captaincy, of course.
This depends on the national law of the country under which flag the ship is sailing. Some countries might allow it, most don't.
What is true, however, is that a captain of airplanes and ships is the police officer on board, so his decisions are to be obeyed by the passengers, and the captain is allowed to arrest persons who don't obey the rules. Of course, his actions must be proportionate.
Bond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5098 posts, RR: 9 Reply 4, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 7798 times:
Quoting KELPkid (Thread starter): One of the more obscure provisions of maritime law (upon which many provisions of aviation law are based) is that a captain at sea, in international waters, can perform a marriage.
I think you'll find very little evidence of this, except in a few places (Japan, and couple must be Japanese?). The Captain can perform a marriage if he has the same requirements as anybody else requires in country whose flag the ship is flying, I believe ... i.e. Judge, JP, Notary, etc.. A Captian being a JP is probably an easy task and common occurrence though.
Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
David L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9212 posts, RR: 42 Reply 5, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 7798 times:
Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 3): a captain of airplanes and ships is the police officer on board, so his decisions are to be obeyed by the passengers, and the captain is allowed to arrest persons who don't obey the rules.
And can police officers conduct marriage ceremonies?
Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 3): This depends on the national law of the country under which flag the ship is sailing. Some countries might allow it, most don't.
Pretty much what I said. However, I don't think we're discussing the same thing. I understand that there might be a few Captains who can conduct weddings but I think it's a myth that there's any "international law" allowing sea Captains to do it.
Bond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5098 posts, RR: 9 Reply 6, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 7798 times:
Quoting David L (Reply 5): understand that there might be a few Captains who can conduct weddings
Correct! The same as there might be a few janitors and bus drivers who can conduct marriages also
Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
Bok269 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 2105 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 7798 times:
You can apply to be an ordained minister online from the Universal Life Church in a matter of minutes.
In many countries, the church wedding is not simply ceremonial. My brother got married last month, and we all signed all the legal docs in the church ... it was part of the ceremony. The Minister was the person legally allowed to marry them.
In some countries (Israel being one that I know of), no legal provision is made for civil weddings (i.e., marriages performed in a court).
I'm tired of the A vs. B sniping. Neither make planes that shed wings randomly!
KELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 5929 posts, RR: 4 Reply 11, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 7798 times:
Quoting Brenintw (Reply 10): In many countries, the church wedding is not simply ceremonial. My brother got married last month, and we all signed all the legal docs in the church ... it was part of the ceremony. The Minister was the person legally allowed to marry them.
That's how my wife and I's church wedding was...and we even signed our marriage license during the ceremony
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
Bond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5098 posts, RR: 9 Reply 12, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 7798 times:
Quoting KELPkid (Reply 11): ...and we even signed our marriage license during the ceremony
Right, but there was probably no requirement for the marriage to be legal except for the officiant being a minister, JP, judge etc., and one or more signatures and possibly a witness. In most states you can become a legal officiant by obtaining a temporary license, valid just for the wedding day. There is usually a 3 day waiting period after applying for the marriage license ... so in 3 days it's not too difficult for anyone to get married in the USA.
Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
SEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6256 posts, RR: 39 Reply 13, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 7798 times:
Quoting Bond007 (Reply 12): so in 3 days it's not too difficult for anyone to get married in the USA.
So as long as you have a 3-day flight I guess you can do it.....
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
Bond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5098 posts, RR: 9 Reply 14, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 7798 times:
Quoting SEPilot (Reply 13): So as long as you have a 3-day flight I guess you can do it.....
LOL ... yes!
You could always get the license before you fly of course
I guess the bottom line is that the same laws of marriage that apply to a country, also apply in that country's aircraft and ships. There are no different laws that I can find, or anyone else has quoted, that apply to captains of boats or aircaft in 'international' waters or airspace.
Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
SEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6256 posts, RR: 39 Reply 15, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 7798 times:
Quoting Bond007 (Reply 14):
You could always get the license before you fly of course
Well, if you have that much foresight you can do it before you leave. I think the reason for allowing captains at sea to do it was that on a sea voyage there was plenty of time to cultivate romances, and since the mores of the day frowned on unmarried people engaging in connubial bliss, it was deemed necessary to insure that somebody on board could perform marriages. In aircraft, none of those constraints apply (not even the one about unmarried people, unfortunately.) So the question is really pretty academic. Besides, the TSA (at least as applied to US airlines) might take issue with the captain emerging from the cockpit to perform a wedding in flight. Not only is he now vulnerable, but his exit and entry from the cockpit could be anticipated. It could conceivably be staged to try and take over the aircraft.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
Bond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5098 posts, RR: 9 Reply 16, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 7798 times:
Quoting SEPilot (Reply 15): I think the reason for allowing captains at sea to do it was that on a sea voyage
But nobody can find any evidence that is anything but an urban myth .. in fact all evidence found by web searches is to the contrary.
Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
LTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 51 Reply 17, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7798 times:
Quoting Brenintw (Reply 10): In many countries, the church wedding is not simply ceremonial.
It was in reference to Germany. AFAIK, a church wedding in Germany is merely something ceremonial, while to make the marriage legally valid, a civil wedding has to be made (correct me if I'm wrong though).
SEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6256 posts, RR: 39 Reply 18, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7798 times:
Quoting Bond007 (Reply 16): But nobody can find any evidence that is anything but an urban myth .. in fact all evidence found by web searches is to the contrary.
Since the time when it was in use (if in fact it ever was) was well before the web, I'm not surprised. You probably would have to resort to looking in books, if anyone remembers what they are.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
Bond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5098 posts, RR: 9 Reply 19, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 7798 times:
Quoting SEPilot (Reply 18): Since the time when it was in use (if in fact it ever was) was well before the web, I'm not surprised. You probably would have to resort to looking in books, if anyone remembers what they are.
Aaah, so you can only find information on the web relating to those years after the web came into existence? You learn something every day
...back to those books .... whatever they might be. I hear they were around before even VCRs !!
Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
David L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9212 posts, RR: 42 Reply 20, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 7798 times:
Quoting SEPilot (Reply 15): I think the reason for allowing captains at sea to do it was that on a sea voyage there was plenty of time to cultivate romances
Like Bond 007, I just don't think that was ever the case.
Quoting SEPilot (Reply 15): ... it was deemed necessary to insure that somebody on board could perform marriages
That I can believe - somebody like a minister, a priest or a registrar who can conduct marriages ashore.
Quoting SEPilot (Reply 18): Quoting Bond007 (Reply 16):
But nobody can find any evidence that is anything but an urban myth .. in fact all evidence found by web searches is to the contrary.
Since the time when it was in use (if in fact it ever was) was well before the web, I'm not surprised.
But laws are usually pretty well documented.
Quoting SEPilot (Reply 18): You probably would have to resort to looking in books, if anyone remembers what they are.
I have such a backlog of books still to read. Once I've started one, I always enjoy it but it's the getting started that's the problem. I need an electricity outage.
TheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3347 posts, RR: 30 Reply 21, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 7798 times:
Quoting LTU932 (Reply 17):
It was in reference to Germany. AFAIK, a church wedding in Germany is merely something ceremonial, while to make the marriage legally valid, a civil wedding has to be made (correct me if I'm wrong though).
Nothing to correct there. However, if you marry for example in Denmark in a church according to Danish law, Germany accepts it. In Germany, the only legally binding way is a civil wedding.
Quoting David L (Reply 5):
Pretty much what I said. However, I don't think we're discussing the same thing. I understand that there might be a few Captains who can conduct weddings but I think it's a myth that there's any "international law" allowing sea Captains to do it.
Well, international law in fact does give the captain of a ship (and of airplanes) special rights, like for example the right to enforce laws on the ship. But according to international law, the law on a ship is the domestic law of the country where the ship is registered. So only if domestic law allows a captain to perform marriages, he is, in fact, allowed to do so.
KELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 5929 posts, RR: 4 Reply 23, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 7798 times:
Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 22): If the Pilot is performing the Marriage ceremony.Make sure a talk on AIDS [Aviation Induced Divorce Syndrome] is part of the ceremony
Good one, MEL!
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
SEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6256 posts, RR: 39 Reply 24, posted (5 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 7798 times:
Quoting David L (Reply 20): But laws are usually pretty well documented.
I suspect laws that have fallen into disuse might be difficult to find on the web, hence my previous comment.
Quoting David L (Reply 20): I have such a backlog of books still to read. Once I've started one, I always enjoy it but it's the getting started that's the problem. I need an electricity outage.
Of course, if Edison hadn't invented the light bulb we'd be stuck watching TV by candlelight.......
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
25 David L: I still find it hard to believe that there would be no reference to such a law on the web if it had really existed. Seriously, I think it's just an o
26 Bond007: Actually there are many references on the web... it's just that they say it IS an old wives tale. Jimbo[Edited 2007-10-07 07:53:36]
27 Ex52tech: I have met some airline captains that would think that they could do that............while they were walking on water Now, go easy on me.............
28 David L: Ah, fair point - though it would only take one legitimate reference to the existence of such a law to blow those other references apart. And yet we'r
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That's how my wife and I's church wedding was...and we even signed our marriage license during the ceremony 
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Good one, MEL!
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