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What Is Done To Flight Test A New ILS Or Loc  
User currently offlineFlightPlan06 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 27 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5417 times:

My airport is putting a Loc in at IGQ . And I wanted to know what the faa does when they flight test it? Does anybody have any movies of this?

35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKcrwflyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3795 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 5417 times:

I'm pretty sure they use one of their kingairs and fly it numerous times.

User currently offlinePilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3144 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 5418 times:

The FAA has a number of Kingairs, Hawkers and Challengers that are filled up with a bunch of sophisticated equipment. They fly down the Localizer going back and forth to make sure it's the proper width and then do the same with the glideslope while a tech on the ground adjusts the beams. They have a callsign on "Flight check". They periodically fly all published approaches to make sure they conform to the TERPS.


DMI
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5417 times:

Do these systems have to be periodically adjusted or "calibrated" if you will?


What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineFLY2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5417 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 3):
Do these systems have to be periodically adjusted or "calibrated" if you will?

Yes, but I'm not sure how frequently, I think its either annually or biannually

[Edited 2007-10-07 12:08:43]

User currently offlineRomeoMike From Canada, joined Nov 2005, 36 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 5418 times:

In Canada a flight check is required at least annually, but it could be as frequently as every six months (I don't recall which, sorry.)

As stated above, it involves multiple approaches with a specially equipped aircraft. Nav Canada uses Challengers and Dash-8s to do it, although they are replacing the CL60s with CRJs soon.

They usually test both parts of the ILS independently: glide-path approaches are usually broken off at the threshold or earlier, while localizer checks occasionally will have to fly the full length of the runway as well. It's impressive to watch the CL60 breaking off an approach at 50' with a hard right turn back into the downwind.  Smile They'll do various arcs as well at distances up to 20 miles or so, as well as one or two complete orbits of the facility at 4 miles.

The entire process is usually scheduled to take about 4 hours, assuming there's little interruption due to traffic or equipment problems.

These procedures surely vary based on the equipment in the aircraft as well as the equipment installed at ground level.


User currently offlineBhill From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 948 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5417 times:

Great question...I've wondered this myself...what about military airfields? Is the FAA charged with this task as well? Overseas as well?

Cheers...



Carpe Pices
User currently offlinePilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3144 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5417 times:

I seem to remember them coming in quite frequntly when I was working line service. Like once or twice a month. Their are regional teams if you will. Of course, they were working quite a bit on the new approaches for 11/29.


DMI
User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 5418 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 3):
Do these systems have to be periodically adjusted or "calibrated" if you will?

Yes they fly what is called periodic checks unless a localizer or glideslope has been out of service for any reason, then FLC has to certify the system before any NOTAM concerning the system and approach are cancelled. I'm being lazy and not going to go look at the Flight Inspection Orders to find the time for each periodic check but here is a link which might help if you dig through it:

http://avn.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=fioo/index

FLC also flight checks each and every instrument approach procedure in the NAS as well as NAVAIDS, SIDS, STARS, Airways/Jet routes, special approach procedures, and RADAR sites.



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineN231YE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5417 times:

I would agree with the above, the use of KingAirs to do checks. I have seen Localizer and PAPI (and possibly an RNAV approach) tests in action, sometimes, the FAA pilots can get glorious.

Likewise, the aircraft usually perform a low approach onto the particular runway being tested, then fly just above and along the runway heading (localizer back-course?), until they reach the opposite end of the runway and go around. Although I am not sure the exact number, I believe the fly-by test is done ~5/6 times.


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5417 times:

Interesting. Thanks guys.


What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineN243NW From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1624 posts, RR: 20
Reply 11, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5389 times:

Years ago, they used to use this beautiful girl:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Danny Fritsche - Airplanespotters



-N243NW Big grin



B-52s don't take off. They scare the ground away.
User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5345 times:

Quoting N231YE (Reply 9):
the use of KingAirs to do checks. I have seen Localizer and PAPI (and possibly an RNAV approach) tests in action, sometimes, the FAA pilots can get glorious

For RNAV flight checks the BE30's are not players, they're doing RNAV's with the LJ60's and maybe the Challengers!



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineFlyUSCG From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 656 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5333 times:

I believe the FAA also uses the 727 to do them. At least thats what I was told. And they were also checking the ILS to 27L at PHL yesterday while I was getting ready to take-off from there. Unfortunatley we took off before she came around again so I didn't see which type of a/c.


Go Trojans! Fight On!
User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5395 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5330 times:

Quoting Bhill (Reply 6):
Great question...I've wondered this myself...what about military airfields?

I believe they are responsible for checking military navaids also ... at least some of them I know.

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 4):
Yes, but I'm not sure how frequently, I think its either annually or biannually



Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 8):
I'm being lazy and not going to go look at the Flight Inspection Orders to find the time for each periodic check

I depends on many factors and type of ILS, navaid etc., but generally the ILS inspection interval is something like 9 months (actually every 270 days).

Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineN231YE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 5320 times:

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 12):
For RNAV flight checks the BE30's are not players, they're doing RNAV's with the LJ60's and maybe the Challengers!

Correction: now that you bring this up, I think it might have been an LJ60, not a BE30. In fact, I can't remember if they did the test a month ago or 5 months ago!  wink 


User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 16, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5299 times:

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 13):
I believe the FAA also uses the 727 to do them. At least thats what I was told. And they were also checking the ILS to 27L at PHL yesterday while I was getting ready to take-off from there. Unfortunatley we took off before she came around again so I didn't see which type of a/c.

Don't think the B727 was doing any flight inspection, can't even remember when the B727 was used to do flight inspection. What you might have heard was an FAA B727 (if any are still flying) doing some type of research work such as satellite or A-DSB testing, who knows what else.



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5395 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5283 times:

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 16):
Don't think the B727 was doing any flight inspection, can't even remember when the B727 was used to do flight inspection. What you might have heard was an FAA B727 (if any are still flying) doing some type of research work such as satellite or A-DSB testing, who knows what else.

Yes, the 727 is not part of the Flight Inspection fleet. It has been used to test new avionics and landing systems, and as you say, it was used as part of the Fedex 727 ADS-B research.


Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineFlyUSCG From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 656 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5260 times:

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 16):
Don't think the B727 was doing any flight inspection, can't even remember when the B727 was used to do flight inspection. What you might have heard was an FAA B727 (if any are still flying) doing some type of research work such as satellite or A-DSB testing, who knows what else.

I guess I didn't word it correctly, but I was referreing to them in two different instances. They were testing 27L at PHL yesterday but I had no idea what type of a/c. I heard about the 727 doing ILS tests at PRC several years ago. I think I heard it back when I was a freshman in 03-04.



Go Trojans! Fight On!
User currently offlineBAe146QT From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2006, 996 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5260 times:

Quoting N243NW:
Years ago, they used to use this beautiful girl:

That looks an awful lot like the classic AA paint scheme.



Todos mis dominós son totalmente pegajosos
User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 20, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5227 times:

Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 19):
That looks an awful lot like the classic AA paint scheme.

Not sure AA would appreciate that comment!  Smile



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineBAe146QT From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2006, 996 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 5146 times:

Quoting IAHFLYR:
Not sure AA would appreciate that comment!

But it's the spit - orange nacelles and "lightning" strikes down the sides. They did a 757 up like that a few years ago. I tried an image search but the database is being flaky at the moment...

The closest I can find is;




Todos mis dominós son totalmente pegajosos
User currently offlineN243NW From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1624 posts, RR: 20
Reply 22, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 5146 times:

Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 21):
They did a 757 up like that a few years ago. I tried an image search but the database is being flaky at the moment...

Your wish is my command:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ryan C. Umphrey



-N243NW Big grin



B-52s don't take off. They scare the ground away.
User currently offlineBAe146QT From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2006, 996 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 5146 times:

Quoting N243NW:
Your wish is my command:

Ah! That's the chappie! Thank you!

What search terms did you use to find that? All I got was a message saying that the database wasn't accepting full-text searches.



Todos mis dominós son totalmente pegajosos
User currently offlineN231YE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (6 years 9 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5146 times:

Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 23):
All I got was a message saying that the database wasn't accepting full-text searches.

With the way A.net has been lately, I wouldn't rule out the fact you did a search at a bad time...


25 Post contains images N243NW : I actually used no text command at all. I selected "757-200", "American Airlines", and "Other Special Paint Schemes" from the drop-down menus. AA doe
26 FredT : If you are really interested in learning more about flight inspection/flight calibration, ICAO Doc. 8071 is the regulatory document. If you can get ho
27 Cptspeaking : At LYH, the runway was just extended 1300', so the localizer has to be readjusted and the glideslope moved before the full ILS approach is restored. T
28 BAe146QT : Possibly - but from N243NW's post, I might have been a bit n00b in my search criteria. I used a free-text search and didn't realise that there was; .
29 IAHFLYR : There are no Gulfstreams in the flight check fleet, unless it is a breand new airplane in the last month.
30 FlightPlan06 : Does anyone have a video of the flight checks? Does anyone know is you can ride along on these flight checks?
31 Boeing7E7 : Most of the Localizer check is done on the ground actually. Its a lateral signal and the primary objective of the test is to determine if anything on
32 Bond007 : Actually, it's almost as important these signals are accurate at distance, as in the final segment. The localizer is usually checked at 10 miles out
33 Boeing7E7 : He's asking about a localizer install, not a full ILS. A LOC check is non-precision and is only checked to the FAS. If the test overlays a RNAV then
34 Cancidas : we had a flightcheck airplane configuring the ILS approaches at LGA a few weeks back. over the course of two weeks they'd fly low passes up and down 1
35 FredT : Localizers will be checked for signal strength, structure and alignment, width, displacement sensitivity (i e the relationship between what you see on
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