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Rusty Bolts On SAS Dash-8 Q400 Landing Gear  
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16991 posts, RR: 67
Posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 9343 times:

Apparently SK has now had quite a few incidents with the Dash-8 Q400s, including two where the landing gear collapsed on landing due to rusty bolts.

Of course, the tabloid media is now all over this, and as soon as there is the slightest whiff of something going on with a plane the coverage is beyond tedious. "Routine" precautionary landings are written up with the attention worthy of smoking holes in the ground. Apparently, SAS is now suing Bombardier for SEK 482 million (around $70 million). Furthermore the Danish cabin crew association is demanding SK replace the type.

For those who understand Swedish, here's a link: http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article1020566.ab

Is this a "big deal" or is the tabloid just exaggerating? What's with the rusty bolts?


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6343 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 9351 times:

From what I've gathered (discussion over in Civ-Av), part of it is environmental: Apparently, SAS parks their Q400's overnight at an airport in Denmark where their parking ramp is right next to a seawall and the aircraft are exposed to heavy salt spray because of that  Sad I could see where that would shorten the life of any metal parts...not just ferrous (iron) based metals either.


Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16991 posts, RR: 67
Reply 2, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 9276 times:

Thx KELPkid. Sounds like classic PEBKAC then.  Wink


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 3, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 9231 times:

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 1):
From what I've gathered (discussion over in Civ-Av), part of it is environmental: Apparently, SAS parks their Q400's overnight at an airport in Denmark where their parking ramp is right next to a seawall and the aircraft are exposed to heavy salt spray because of that Sad I could see where that would shorten the life of any metal parts

Another factor that hits European operators is the use of formate-based deicing fluids. SAS works in an environment where deicing is a lot more common that, say, Horizon Air and European airports usually use formate fluids (rare in the US) which are nastier to the metal bits but more environmentally friendly.

Tom.


User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6343 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 9217 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 2):
Thx KELPkid. Sounds like classic PEBKAC then.

Hehe, I wasn't familiar with the term, so I googled it. Of course the Wikipedia article was on top. I thought you'd appreciate this direct quote from it: "In Sweden the term is 'skit bakom tangenterna', literally 'crap behind the keyboard'."

But thanks, a new term for my vocabulary at work when dealing with irate (but clueless) IT customers Big grin The profession that pays for my aviation addiction  Smile



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineBrenintw From Taiwan, joined Jul 2006, 1607 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9196 times:

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 4):
But thanks, a new term for my vocabulary at work when dealing with irate (but clueless) IT customers The profession that pays for my aviation addiction

Ah, so you also get lot's of "ID-ten-T" problems to deal with  Smile



I'm tired of the A vs. B sniping. Neither make planes that shed wings randomly!
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 6, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9189 times:

Isn't there an Scheduled Inspection check on these bolts if the problem is so common.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineNorlander From Faroe Islands, joined Sep 2007, 150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 9161 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Thread starter):

From the various civ-av threads on this subject it seems that it's not only SK has problems with the Q400. The place that they park their aircraft next to the Øresund isn't that exposed either. It's a narrow straight with landmasses next to it and "high-winds" are seldom encountered there, so there is a lot of current in the straight, but not much wind. Which doesn't give much spray from the salt water. Furthermore the water in the Øresund has a lower salinity then oceanic water.

Hence it's a good possibility that there is some other reason for this problem with the Q400s



Longtime Lurker
User currently offlineBAe146QT From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2006, 996 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 9143 times:

Quoting Norlander:
It's a narrow straight with landmasses next to it and "high-winds" are seldom encountered there, so there is a lot of current in the straight, but not much wind. Which doesn't give much spray from the salt water.

I left a brand-new Cannondale bike parked in an underground garage at my grandmother's condo on the Galt Ocean Drive (Ft. Lauderdale) while I was on holiday a few years back.

Even though it wasn't in direct spray, the atmosphere was salty enough that within days there was very visible corrosion on any exposed (meaning unlacquered) aluminium parts, as well as the (brand new and lubricated) chain, brake cables, ferrules and bolt heads.

Notwithstanding the lower slainity, and the maint that the Q400s would be getting, they'd be far more exposed than that and I wouldn't be surprised to find that it played a factor.



Todos mis dominós son totalmente pegajosos
User currently offlineDYflyer From Norway, joined May 2006, 676 posts, RR: 15
Reply 9, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 9124 times:

Quoting Norlander (Reply 7):
From the various civ-av threads on this subject it seems that it's not only SK has problems with the Q400. The place that they park their aircraft next to the Øresund isn't that exposed either. It's a narrow straight with landmasses next to it and "high-winds" are seldom encountered there, so there is a lot of current in the straight, but not much wind. Which doesn't give much spray from the salt water. Furthermore the water in the Øresund has a lower salinity then oceanic water.

Hence it's a good possibility that there is some other reason for this problem with the Q400s

Also, the parking at CPH would not explaine the rust on SK Sweden´s and Wideroe´s plane.



Life is like a book. If you don't travel, you only read one page.
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16991 posts, RR: 67
Reply 10, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 9096 times:

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 4):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 2):
Thx KELPkid. Sounds like classic PEBKAC then.

Hehe, I wasn't familiar with the term, so I googled it. Of course the Wikipedia article was on top. I thought you'd appreciate this direct quote from it: "In Sweden the term is 'skit bakom tangenterna', literally 'crap behind the keyboard'."

But thanks, a new term for my vocabulary at work when dealing with irate (but clueless) IT customers Big grin The profession that pays for my aviation addiction Smile

It is a classic: http://www.felix-schwarz.name/files/...Linux_ist_nicht_Windows/pebkac.gif  Wink



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlinePrebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6384 posts, RR: 54
Reply 11, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 9035 times:

You can just forget about the salty Oeresund water as the root cause for those accidents. We are in the middle of the "west wind belt", and Oeresund is directly east of CPH. Strong winds are always westerly. There may be a storm from east every 10 or 20 years. Oeresund has only about 20% of normal ocean salt contents.

There are hundreds of airports in the world which are more prone to salt spray than CPH. Some of them are also visited by SK Q400s, for instance Aalborg (where the first accident happened), another is Stavanger, Norway.

All sorts of planes are parked at CPH, not just Q400. Some of them are 5-6-7 times older than the oldest Q400s, still they don't fall apart from corrosion.

Deicing is a frequent activity all over northern Europe during a substantial part of the year. But then again, all plane types receive deicing treatment.

It is a plane quality / maintenance issue. Nobody ever doubted that SK maintained the Q400s according to the book. That wasn't enough.

Of course corrosion is a consequence of the ambient environment, and of course planes are more prone to corrosion in Scandinavia than in Australia. But for almost a hundred years planes have been produced and maintained in a way so they can fly in Scandinavia without falling apart. And sure the Q400 and/or its maintenance procedures will be changed in a way so it won't be the exception.

BTW, the bad press the Q400 has got here didn't start with the two accidents. It began immediately after introduction of the plane seven years ago, and it kept on. Regularity was at such a low level that it really differentiated itself from all other plane types. Then the first accident happened, and SAS told us that this was a totally ununderstandable issue which could never happen again. And then it was repeated 57 hours later.

And it doesn't stop there. Last week on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, after only part of the fleet had entered service with replaced landing gear parts, the SK Q400 had three issues. One aborted take-off with an engine problem. One returned because the gear wouldn't retract. And one diverted because a nose wheel door wouldn't close. Those issues were not safety related, but still, as much too often before, pax weren't brought from A to B within the timeframe they expected.

When cabin crews urge SAS to replace those planes asap, then it is probably because they are afraid of losing their job. The situation is so that SAS loses tons of business to the competitors as long as they haven't proved two consecutive years of reliable Q400 service. Hopefully such two years can start tomorrow.



Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlineWrenchBender From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 1779 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 9014 times:

Just being present in a 'Salt Laden Environment' is enough to start corrosion. That can mean as much as 10 miles inland from the ocean. Humidity and temp also have a huge affect on the causation of corrosion, other areas of concern that have occured in the past on landing gear is the disinfectant used by some countries to prevent the spread of Hoof and Mouth.

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 11):
And it doesn't stop there. Last week on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, after only part of the fleet had entered service with replaced landing gear parts, the SK Q400 had three issues. One aborted take-off with an engine problem. One returned because the gear wouldn't retract. And one diverted because a nose wheel door wouldn't close. Those issues were not safety related

2 out of 3 of those issues sure sound like bad maintenance. Work done on landing gear and immediately after you have a retraction failure and a nose gear door out of rig. Is some one in the company trying to make a statement the ugliest way possible?

Just a thought........

WrenchBender



Silly Pilot, Tricks are for kids.......
User currently offlineAvt007 From Canada, joined Jul 2000, 2132 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 9006 times:

The "rusty bolt" in question was in fact the rod end of the gear actuator pulling right out of the actuator assembly. How the threads got so corroded is a bit of a mystery.

User currently offlinePrebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6384 posts, RR: 54
Reply 14, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 8982 times:

Quoting WrenchBender (Reply 12):
2 out of 3 of those issues sure sound like bad maintenance. Work done on landing gear and immediately after you have a retraction failure and a nose gear door out of rig.

Dear WrenchBender, to me it easily sounds like even 3 out of 3. Even if I don't know why they had to shut down an engine during take-off run - could be a manufacturing fault.

And it's a mystery how come SK can fly the most diverse fleet in the world with very fine dispatch rates on all types of planes, except one, and then have such severe problems with that one.

Quoting WrenchBender (Reply 12):
Is some one in the company trying to make a statement the ugliest way possible?

I don't think I can figure out what you mean. Which company? I just quoted facts about three issues as they were reported by various news agencies, newspapers, radio, TV, internet etc.

If your "the company" is SK, then they say as little as possible. They issued a few press releases mostly dealing with what flight cancelations to expect, and on which phone numbers or internet sites to obtain detailed information about cancelations. Only right after the grounding did they also tell us that defective parts had been found on 25 out of 27 planes, and that no plane would fly again until those parts had been exchanged. Which would take some time due to spares availability. But the last plane took to the air yesterday or the day before yesterday, so SK has nothing more to tell us.

If you want to hear "the ugliest", then you have to ask any Danish kid to tell you a selection of "Dash-8 jokes". They can't be printed here.



Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16991 posts, RR: 67
Reply 15, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 8878 times:

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 14):
If you want to hear "the ugliest", then you have to ask any Danish kid to tell you a selection of "Dash-8 jokes". They can't be printed here.

Why not? Just star the swearwords.  Wink



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlinePrebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6384 posts, RR: 54
Reply 16, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8779 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 15):
Why not? Just star the swearwords.

No, it won't work.

Actually, a month ago I quoted one in the GA forum, one of the nicer ones which I had heard on the Danish radio program DR-1 (similar to BBC One). Just as an example to demonstrate the mental Q400 situation in this country. It was de-leted by the mod as being *¤%#*ly unfit for a place like a-net. In which I agree.

Scan your kid's SMS inbox instead. Or rather, don't do that!



Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 17, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8774 times:

Quoting Avt007 (Reply 13):
How the threads got so corroded is a bit of a mystery.

Someone has not followed procedures.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16991 posts, RR: 67
Reply 18, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 8700 times:

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 16):
Scan your kid's SMS inbox instead. Or rather, don't do that!

Seeing as my older kid just turned two, I think not.  Wink

Anyway if you have them written down pm me. But don't go to any effort. I'm not THAT interested.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16991 posts, RR: 67
Reply 19, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 8256 times:

Apparently SK will take the Dash-8 out of service after yet another incident where the landing gear did not deploy. http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article1115988.ab

Furthermore, the Dash-8 Q400 is now grounded by the Scandinavian authorities regardless of operator.

[Edited 2007-10-28 08:15:39]


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineBuyantUkhaa From Mongolia, joined May 2004, 2864 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8232 times:

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 11):
Oeresund has only about 20% of normal ocean salt contents.

When reading this I thought this was impossible, as both the North Sea and the Baltic sea are salty (albeit less so in the latter case). But it seems that you're right... interesting.



http://home.swipnet.se/~w-48087/fagl...aterialmapp/vadarmapp/oresund.html



I scratch my head, therefore I am.
User currently offlineCopter808 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1052 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8189 times:

Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 8):
grandmother's condo on the Galt Ocean Drive (Ft. Lauderdale)

Just a note...did you know that Art Galt (of the Galt Ocean Mile family) owned an airport in Illinois? Quite a guy for those of us who knew him. Looked like a farmer, dressed like a farmer, but was very smart--and rich! One REALLY super guy though!


User currently offlineBAe146QT From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2006, 996 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 8087 times:

Quoting Copter808 (Reply 21):
Just a note...did you know that Art Galt (of the Galt Ocean Mile family) owned an airport in Illinois?

To be honest, I never even knew the origin of the name. Thank you for taking the time to post - I will spend some effort Googling this!

[Edited 2007-10-28 15:50:52]


Todos mis dominós son totalmente pegajosos
User currently offlineMissedApproach From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 713 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 7808 times:

Porter Airlines was quoted in one of the 'papers today as being very happy with their Q400 fleet. They further say they believe the problem lies within SK .
Many other airlines have temporarily grounded their Q400's until detailed inspections can be made. More here:

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/f...677-45b5-96e9-38e91dfd9cb2&k=13923



Can you hear me now?
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 7797 times:

Quoting Avt007 (Reply 13):
The "rusty bolt" in question was in fact the rod end of the gear actuator pulling right out of the actuator assembly. How the threads got so corroded is a bit of a mystery.

Sounds like they need to seal the rod end better.


User currently offlineWrenchBender From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 1779 posts, RR: 9
Reply 25, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7216 times:

It seems that SAS maint aren't looking to good after the prelim report from the ;last incident.
From the article.....
Denmark’s Accident Investigation Board reported that the landing gear accident of SAS Dash 8 - Q400 LN-RDI at 27.10.2007 in Copenhagen was caused by a piece of rubber O-Ring trapped in the landing gear, preventing it from extending accurately.
This cause is not related to the two previous accidents which occurred in September 2007. According to the preliminary investigation report, this accident might have happened because of a fault by maintenance personnel and not because of a possible design fault of Bombardier’s Q400.
http://blog.flightstory.net/375/prel...ort-sas-dhc8-q400-ln-rdi-accident/

WrenchBender



Silly Pilot, Tricks are for kids.......
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