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ETOPS; Inside Out, Aircraft Conv. For Term Paper  
User currently offlineMmedford From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 561 posts, RR: 9
Posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 8287 times:

Hello Everyone, This is my first post at Airliners.net...first post after multiple years of lurking...

to begin I am a student at Vaughn College of Aeronautics and Technology @ LGA...the old College of Aeronautics...etc...who knows how many names we have had.

I'm a 3rd year Avionics Concentration...currently in a class titled Avionics Installs and Maintenance.

I have to write a term paper this semester and my topic of choice is really ETOPS.

So everyone, I am really looking for as much information as possible regarding the following;
1. What is ETOPS?
2. Why ETOPS is needed?
3. The whole origin of ETOPS (the circle plots).
4. What makes an aircraft ETOPS capable.
5. FARs regarding ETOPS.
6. Converting a non-ETOPS aircraft to ETOPS (this is a major one, I am really interested in BA's 757 ETOPS conversions)
7. What causes an aircraft to lose it's ETOPS rating.

This is not only a list of information, but how I am going to arrange my paper...aiming for about 8 to 12 pages.

So again, thank you everyone and please help me achieve an A within this class.

btw; if it would make me feel more welcomed...in 2006 I was awarded the Al Ueltschi Scholarship Award, at the Wings Club Dinner & Dance.

http://www.wingsclub.org/awards_scholarship.html (look for my name, Mark Medford).

Thanks Again =)


ILS = It'll Land Somewhere
21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineJRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4670 posts, RR: 50
Reply 1, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 8286 times:

With all due respect, I would expect more from a 3rd year student. You are asking for the most basic information. Do you have to do the paper or do we?


For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
User currently offlineMmedford From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 561 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 8281 times:

Actually most of the information I have, alot I received from a buddy of mine who works for Delta...

I'm mostly looking for information regarding to converting a non-ETOPS aircraft to ETOPS qualified.

that seems to be the hardest to come across...

also any books regarding ETOPS.

I'm just looking for people to supplement the information I have.



ILS = It'll Land Somewhere
User currently offlineJRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4670 posts, RR: 50
Reply 3, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 8277 times:

Quoting Mmedford (Reply 2):
Actually most of the information I have

that doesn't really show from your first post (welcome btw)

Quoting Mmedford (Reply 2):
I'm mostly looking for information regarding to converting a non-ETOPS aircraft to ETOPS qualified.

the info ought to be the same as chapter 4, but described as 'how am I going to do it'. So you already have the framework for that one.

Quoting Mmedford (Reply 2):
I'm just looking for people to supplement the information I have.

than let us see what you have, so we can add things



For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
User currently offlineFr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5358 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 8199 times:

Welcome from an old Academy graduate.

Now, why would you choose ETOPS as a topic if you're an Avionics student? There is actually very little avionics in ETOPS. ETOPS is an engine and systems topic. To tell you the truth I can't really think of anything in the traditional avionics 'chapters' (22, 23 & 34) that would downgrade an aircraft's ETOPS status, though I don't have an ETOPS manual handy to confirm. I'm sure someone will chime in.

Things that will downgrade an aircraft:

Simultaneous engine maintenance.
Non-ETOPS qualified mechanic working an ETOPS task.
Non-ETOPS parts installed in an ETOPS significant system.
Excessive oil consumption, engine or APU.
APU failure or an APU that fails to start inflight.
A bunch of chapter 21 issues.
Basically everything in chapters 71 - 79, excluding 78 when worked by a Non-ETOPS AMT.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 5, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 8181 times:

Quoting Mmedford (Thread starter):
1. What is ETOPS?

Until very recently, it was the regulations governing operation of twins more than 60 minutes from the closest diversion airport. Now, it's the procedures are being phased in for all flights more than 60 minutes from a divert airport, regardless of engine count.

Quoting Mmedford (Thread starter):
2. Why ETOPS is needed?

At the beginning of the twin era, engine reliability wasn't necessarily high enough to provide adequately low risk of losing both engines prior to reaching a safe landing site. ETOPS was created to ensure that that risk remained acceptably low.

Quoting Mmedford (Thread starter):
3. The whole origin of ETOPS (the circle plots).

As far as I know, it started with the 767 operators wanting to fly trans-Atlantic.

Quoting Mmedford (Thread starter):
4. What makes an aircraft ETOPS capable.

At the very basic level, it's all about the statistics of not being able to reach a safe diversion airport. In practice that means:
-Engine and systems maintenance procedures that minimize the chances of a common mode failure
-Extra redundant systems to provide more protection during one-engine operation
-Continuous monitoring of fleet reliability to ensure that the goals of the ETOPS program are being met

Quoting Mmedford (Thread starter):
5. FARs regarding ETOPS.

Browse around the FAA website...I believe they have an issue paper on this.

Quoting Mmedford (Thread starter):
6. Converting a non-ETOPS aircraft to ETOPS (this is a major one, I am really interested in BA's 757 ETOPS conversions)

Biggies include adding a second FMC, second crossfeed valve, and altered maintenance program. Basically, restoring those design elements that are needed for ETOPS that weren't originally built in.

Quoting Mmedford (Thread starter):
7. What causes an aircraft to lose it's ETOPS rating.

Fr8mech's got a good list for what might do it to a particular airline or aircraft. A whole fleet could lose its rating if it's in-flight shutdown rate or diversion rate got too high.

Tom.


User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 8172 times:

Quoting Mmedford (Reply 2):
I'm mostly looking for information regarding to converting a non-ETOPS aircraft to ETOPS qualified

In many cases you can't do that. ETOPS is a lot more then just throwing on a few life rafts and life vests. The aircraft must first even be on the list to be ETOPS capable... not all are. By that I mean 757 #1 might be upgradable, 757 #2 might not just simply by the way it way built.



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17000 posts, RR: 67
Reply 7, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 8160 times:

Quoting Mmedford (Thread starter):
1. What is ETOPS?
2. Why ETOPS is needed?
3. The whole origin of ETOPS (the circle plots).
4. What makes an aircraft ETOPS capable.
5. FARs regarding ETOPS.
6. Converting a non-ETOPS aircraft to ETOPS (this is a major one, I am really interested in BA's 757 ETOPS conversions)
7. What causes an aircraft to lose it's ETOPS rating.

1. Extended Twin Engine Operational Procedures Specifications.
2. In order to operate "far" from a landing spot, for example over ocean and remote land areas.
3. Airbus with he A300?
4. Type certification, airline certification, specific aircraft certification, crew training and certification. In practice, extra equipment, special maintenance procedures, etc..
6. Extra equipment, special maintenance, introducing an ETOPS procedure...
7. Lack of equipment, failing an inspection (I guess).



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineMmedford From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 561 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 8137 times:

Wow guys, I must say this is a ton of help!!! I came across alot of the laymans stuff online but this really gets into the technicals.
@ Fr8mech; The class is more of a Federal Regulations class, rather than Avionics based. Our professor wants us to write about something related to aviation. Some students are doing a design based paper, I believe one guy is doing a term paper on filing and paper management. But that is definately a good list. Can you tell me exactly what book/chapters you are referring to?

@ Tdscanuck & EMBQA; Thanks for your inputs as well and I understand with each conversion things are different. But I was really interested in what seperates a non-ETOPS aircraft from an ETOPS aircraft.

Lets say you have a UA757 that wasn't ETOPS equipped, what would have to be done inorder to make it ETOPS capable?

I'm really looking for the checklist behind what needs to be done. I think I have enough info to cover the rest of the sections for my paper, except the actual conversion.

If anyone has an real world example of an aircraft that was converted to ETOPS, that would greatly be appreciated!



ILS = It'll Land Somewhere
User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3981 posts, RR: 34
Reply 9, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 8125 times:

Quoting Mmedford (Thread starter):
Converting a non-ETOPS aircraft to ETOPS (this is a major one, I am really interested in BA's 757 ETOPS conversions)

BA has operated two distinct fleets of B757.
The original fleet which was powered by RB211-535C engines was never ETOPS. These aircraft have now all been sold on as package freighters to DHL.
The second fleet powered by RB211-535E engines was delivered from Boeing as ETOPS aircraft. None are presently maintained as ETOPS aircraft, but of the 13 now in service, I think 11 could be ETOPS.
Two aircraft will be reinstated as ETOPS aircraft in March next year


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17000 posts, RR: 67
Reply 10, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 8115 times:

Quoting Mmedford (Reply 8):
I believe one guy is doing a term paper on filing and paper management.

Some people seem to be born to push paper.  Wink

Quoting Mmedford (Reply 8):
Lets say you have a UA757 that wasn't ETOPS equipped, what would have to be done inorder to make it ETOPS capable?

Not that I know the exact list but AFAIK it includes:
- Extra life rafts.
- Extra survival equipment.
- Maintenance carried out independently for each engine.
- Extra navigational or at least flight deck equipment for redundancy.
- ...



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineTristarSteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3981 posts, RR: 34
Reply 11, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 8102 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 10):
Quoting Mmedford (Reply 8):
Lets say you have a UA757 that wasn't ETOPS equipped, what would have to be done inorder to make it ETOPS capable?

Not that I know the exact list but AFAIK it includes:
- Extra life rafts.
- Extra survival equipment.
- Maintenance carried out independently for each engine.
- Extra navigational or at least flight deck equipment for redundancy.

Thats the easy part
More difficult is to make the aircraft ETOPS equipped.
This includes things like a second fuel crossfeed valve, an enhanced standby power system, a hydraulic generator, checking and changing items to make them ETOPS qualified, like the APU, the engine EECs and fuel pumps etc.
Each airline has a type specific ETOPS manual which lists the pt nbrs of a long list of equipment that is required for ETOPS. Some B757 are non ETOPS. The fuel pump fitted to these aircraft is interchangeable with the fuel pump on an ETOPS aircraft, but must not be fitted for ETOPS operation.
Aircraft like the B777 are all ETOPS. All B777 are built to ETOPS standard so pt nbrs are not an issue.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13968 posts, RR: 63
Reply 12, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 8084 times:

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 5):
Quoting Mmedford (Thread starter):
1. What is ETOPS?

Until very recently, it was the regulations governing operation of twins more than 60 minutes from the closest diversion airport. Now, it's the procedures are being phased in for all flights more than 60 minutes from a divert airport, regardless of engine count.

AFAIK, on insistence of some operators of twin-engined aircraft, who complain that it would be unfair if the operators of three or four engined aircraft wouldn't have the same restrictions.

Introducing EOPS is a long process for a company. Not only must the aircraft be certified, but also the whole maintenance organisation including materials and purchasing and the crews as well.

Jan


User currently offlineBoeing767mech From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1025 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 8064 times:

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 4):
Non-ETOPS qualified mechanic working an ETOPS task.

This depends on the carrier, the little airline I work for, Being non-ETOPS doesn't affect the ETOPS status, like a NON-LMP quad'd mechanic working a autopilot would knock the airplane out of CATIII status. A NON-ETOPS qual'd mechanic can't release the log book on a ETOPS flight, but he can still work the airplane as long as a ETOPS qual'd mechanic or crew chief releases the airplane

Something simply as changing oil filters on both IDG's will throw a airplane out of ETOPS and will have to fly a 60/60 flight before being upgraded back to ETOPS, (60/60 flight is 60 minutes or 60 miles away from a airport until upgraded back to ETOPS rating)

Funny this topic just came up, I just had to renew my ETOPS quals for my little airline.

David



Never under-estimate the predictably of stupidty
User currently offlineFr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5358 posts, RR: 14
Reply 14, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 8041 times:

Quoting Mmedford (Reply 8):
Can you tell me exactly what book/chapters you are referring to?

You're a third year student in an aviation maintenance school and you don't get my chapter references? What are they teaching at the old AOA?

The chapters I referred to are the ATA chapters for specific systems:

22-Autoflight
23-Communication
34-Navigation
49-APU
71-Engine-General
72-Engine-Internal and gearboxes (I think)
73-Engine Fuel
74-Engine Ignition
75-Engine Air Management
76-Engine Control
77-Engine Indicating
78-Engine Exhaust and Reversing
79-Engine Oil
80-Starting



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineHiFi From Brazil, joined Apr 2005, 192 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 7949 times:

Sorry I don't have very much time... and this is a very extensive subject...

The conversion of non-ETOPS to ETOPS really depends on how your non-ETOPS looks like.
ETOPS means 2 approvals: type design approval (which makes an a/c ETOPS capable) and operational approval. The first is achieved by an a/c manufacturer or completion center. The second is the responsibility of the airline, although some help from the manufacturer is needed.

All I wanted to say is: the amount of work necessary for the conversion may involve design changes in the a/c, training of personnel, new reliability tracking methods and new flight and maintenance procedures, but it also may not, depending on the a/c type and configuration and on the operator.

OK, running out of time.. have a look on the internet..
From the FAA: AC 120-42A (no longer valid but for years the true rulebook of ETOPS); App. K to Part 25 (new ETOPS regulation). The Federal Register from Jan 16th, 2007, Vol. 72 No. 9, Part II, contains the NPRM discussions that gave birth to this App. K and can also add a lot of information. There is also a new AC being drafted by the FAA. It will probably be available for industry comments sometime next year.
From EASA: AMC 20-6. EASA stuff is harder to find and this AMC is quite similar to AC 120-42A.
Airbus has a very interesting document "Getting to grips with ETOPS", or some similar title. I don't have it with me here, so unfortunately I can't give you any more references on it.

Good luck on this.
Cheers



no commercial potential
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 16, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7938 times:

Quoting Mmedford (Thread starter):
1. What is ETOPS?

Engines Turn Or Passengers Swim.  Wink

Sorry, it had to be said. Big grin


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17000 posts, RR: 67
Reply 17, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 7913 times:

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 16):
Engines Turn Or Passengers Swim. Wink

Sorry, it had to be said

Again and again.  Wink Sounds better than Engines Turn Or Passengers Die Of Exposure In The Desert of course. ETOPDOEITD!!! Big grin



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineMmedford From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 561 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 7889 times:

Pretty good information here, thanks alot everyone. I shall be putting together the first draft and powerpoint presentation within the next week.

Will be looking forward to opinions once completed.

Thanks again



ILS = It'll Land Somewhere
User currently offlineQslinger From India, joined Apr 2006, 258 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 7841 times:

Once your are done with your paper...do post it on here..I am sure all the contributers would love to see it..

Raj

[Edited 2007-11-09 14:06:14]


Raj Koona
User currently offlineAbnormal From UK - England, joined Aug 2007, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 7756 times:

You should google Transport Canada TP 6327E for an excellent summary of what ETOPS is and what approval entails. The Criteria are pretty much the same as FAA with minor differences.

Interesting bit of trivia - There are land overflights considered as ETOPS areas - eg Amazon and Himalayas, even parts of Australia if I recall correctly.

There are a number of operational issues that need to be implemented for an ETOPS operation as mentioned above, crew training, checklists procedures etc, but at the heart of the ETOPS issue is maintenance and reliabilty with respect to systems redundancy. Typically the manufacturer provide the equipment/systems requirements which you install if not already done and the operator needs to meet/demonstrate the reliabilty criteria. Essentially more precise record keeping of assorted systems and a maintaining a dedicated ETOPS spares inventory.

ETOPS authourization is given on a graduated basis for 75 mins, 90 mins, 120, 138, etc. With no ETOPS history a carrier will be given 60 or 75 mins initially but if they have some history on another fleet type or follow certain maint plans they get some credit for that so they may initially get approved for 120 mins or 138 minutes.

Of course that's constrained by the systems and fuel capabilities of the aircraft. If you need or want a 120 mins ETOPS approval then you need a 2 hr fire suppression system. You also need fuel enough to handle the worst case scenario of
1) depressurization requiring diversion at 10000'
2) single engine diversion
3) electrical failure

Read the Transport Canada document for more details on Ops Approval. PM me if you want specific aircraft changes rqd. (A319)


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24868 posts, RR: 22
Reply 21, posted (6 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 7745 times:

This article from last March may be of interest.
http://www.flightsafety.org/asw/mar07/asw_mar07_p12-16.pdf

It covers changes to ETOPS rules implemented early this year, including extending them to all aircraft, not just twin-engine aircraft, although requirements are of course more severe for twins. As a result ETOPS no longer means "extended twin operations", but just "extended operations".


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