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Planes And Fireworks: Any Danger?  
User currently offlineBA787 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 2596 posts, RR: 7
Posted (6 years 9 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6734 times:

I'm currently sat in my room watching all of the fireworks out across the valley and glancing occasionally at the flashing lights of yet another LS 733 on approach into LBA. It made me wonder whether there is any danger to these low flying birds as the huge rockets shoot up into the sky. It certainly must be distracting but is there any actual danger. Some of these fireworks go fairly high and seem to go much higher than these approaching planes (since I can read the logos etc.)

Just a thought, but I bet it scares the cr*p out of some of the passengers.

BA787

33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17056 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (6 years 9 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6732 times:

Of course it can be a danger for a/c.


Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlineBA787 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 2596 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (6 years 9 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6728 times:

Quoting B747forever (Reply 1):

Well thats what I thought, but I wondered if there were any special procedures at this time of year (higher approaches) or if they banned houses under the low airways from doing so. We don't have any restrictions so it can't be that.

BA787


User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17056 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (6 years 9 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6713 times:

Quoting BA787 (Reply 2):
if they banned houses under the low airways from doing so.

I really doubt that they ban it.

Quoting BA787 (Reply 2):
but I wondered if there were any special procedures at this time of year (higher approaches)

It is more likely with higher approaches.

But one thing has to be sure. Airlines can just ignore fireworks, right???



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlineMhodgson From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2002, 5047 posts, RR: 25
Reply 4, posted (6 years 9 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6626 times:

I think you'd have to be right under the final approach path for a household firework to affect an aircraft; I doubt they can go more than 100' up, and so common sense should prevail.


No trees were harmed by this message. However, several million electrons were terribly inconvenienced
User currently offlineAnalog From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (6 years 9 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6572 times:

Quoting B747forever (Reply 1):
Of course it can be a danger for a/c.

Non-category 4 (non-professional fireworks) really pose a danger? In a non-trivial way?

If an aircraft is dumping fuel and the fuel trail is hit by a shell... maybe. If a pilot is freaked out by a blast in his/her line of sight and somehow does a nosedive or stalls the a/c, maybe.


User currently offlineKubik From Croatia, joined Apr 2007, 71 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 9 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6467 times:

Hi there, it might be just coincidence, but I have seen yesterday at LHR BMI bird landing when firework gone off in the proximity of the guidence lights for landing and the aircraft imidiatly stoped landing manuever and gone as missed approach.

Kubik


User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 7, posted (6 years 9 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6368 times:

Quoting BA787 (Thread starter):
It made me wonder whether there is any danger to these low flying birds as the huge rockets shoot up into the sky.

They're not exactly big rockets...even a pro shell is something like 6" in diameter and the explosive power is very small. Just enough to burst the shell and ignite the stars.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 1):
Of course it can be a danger for a/c.

How so? If it actually struck the aircraft there might be some burn damage but I don't think there's nearly enough energy for structural damage. A firework just looks pretty...most of the bang is the charge to lob it to altitude and that's gone long before it gets near the plane. The shell itself is just cardboard, plastic, and slow-burn power with a small black-powder bursting charge. If you were so unlucky as to have an engine suck in a whole shell it would probably result in an engine shutdown but not really any worse than a bird as far as I can tell.

If it went off right beside a window I suppose it the shockwave might crack the window but that's far from being dangerous...mostly annoying (and expensive).

Tom.


User currently offlineSkyexRamper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (6 years 9 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6280 times:

Generally household fireworks don't get higher than 150-200ft. I would be more leary of an airplane flying that low when not on short final to a runway.

User currently offlineGraphic From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 9 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6270 times:

Well in the very unlikely scenario that a pro firework got sucked into an engine before the final explosive charge was detonated, that could cause some issues...

User currently offlineBWilliams From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 212 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 9 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 6253 times:

Quoting Kubik (Reply 6):
Hi there, it might be just coincidence, but I have seen yesterday at LHR BMI bird landing when firework gone off in the proximity of the guidence lights for landing and the aircraft imidiatly stoped landing manuever and gone as missed approach.

Obviously it's hard to say for sure, but my guess is that it was more for the pilot's benefit then anything -- the firework could have distracted him from the landing, and the pilot figured that it would be better to go around and set himself back up so that situational awareness was at its highest.



Regards, Brad Williams
User currently offlineAnalog From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (6 years 9 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6224 times:

Quoting Graphic (Reply 9):
Well in the very unlikely scenario that a pro firework got sucked into an engine before the final explosive charge was detonated, that could cause some issues...

I imagine that even a large firework contains less energy than a large bird at 150+mph (bird strike test), though the energy might be directed differently.

(How well would a firework survive past the fan blades?)


User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 12, posted (6 years 9 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6197 times:

Quoting Analog (Reply 11):
(How well would a firework survive past the fan blades?)

Not very. That's a good point...most of the burst energy for a firework comes by containing the charge with the shell until the pressure can build up (since black powder burns pretty slowly). The fan would make mincemeat of the shell, which would greatly lessen the power of the burst.

Tom.


User currently offlineGraphic From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (6 years 9 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6192 times:

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 12):
The fan would make mincemeat of the shell, which would greatly lessen the power of the burst.

Would probably take away the burst completely, but at that point you have highly flammable particles flying into the burner cans of the jet engine. The end result of that coudn't be a good thing.


User currently offlineAnalog From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (6 years 9 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6175 times:

Quoting Graphic (Reply 13):

Would probably take away the burst completely, but at that point you have highly flammable particles flying into the burner cans of the jet engine. The end result of that coudn't be a good thing.

Where does the Jet-A go?  Big grin


User currently offlineGraphic From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 9 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6170 times:

Quoting Analog (Reply 14):
Where does the Jet-A go?

What happens when Jet-A goes into a recip engine? ...same effect.


User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5001 posts, RR: 28
Reply 16, posted (6 years 9 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 6146 times:

Quoting BA787 (Thread starter):
Just a thought, but I bet it scares the cr*p out of some of the passengers.

BA787

Actually, I flew on the 4th of July 4 times out and into LAS. It was fun to see, but certainly not scary. The other passengers seated by windows obviously expected to view the fireworks. To be honest, it was not even spectacular. I find my heartbeat rising when I am under the firework displays!



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineBA787 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 2596 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5900 times:

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 16):

Suppose you're probably right.

Some fireworks must go higher than 200ft, or certainly appear to, but then I'm no expert on firewoks (most of the teenagers around my area are though  Yeah sure)

Thanks for the feedback guys, now i cant use my trademark "bet that scares the shit outta the guy flying that plane" line when a big one goes up Big grin

BA787


User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 18, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5798 times:

Quoting BA787 (Reply 17):
now i cant use my trademark "bet that scares the shit outta the guy flying that plane" line when a big one goes up

I think you're still good...even if it's not a threat to the plane, I would think a big firework going off nearby would be a brown-trousers moment for the flight crew.

Tom.


User currently offlineTCFC424 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 517 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 5642 times:

I think that for some of the professionally produced fireworks shows there are regulations that prohibit launches within scheduled approach and departure patterns. This is likely just to prevent pilot distraction. We are all thinking about small fireworks and big planes...but what about some GA aircraft? Any difference?

User currently offlineBA787 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 2596 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5636 times:

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 18):

 rotfl  That tickled me. That might be better : I bet that pilots wife had a fun job getting the stains outta his underwear" cud be gud too

BA787


User currently offline2175301 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 1037 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5616 times:

Quoting TCFC424 (Reply 19):
think that for some of the professionally produced fireworks shows there are regulations that prohibit launches within scheduled approach and departure patterns.

Absolutely correct. You cannot have a professional lifeworks show in the approach & departure paths or common holding patterns of an active airports.

For small VFR only landing strips you can have fireworks at night because no plane would be using the runway. This has allowed some small airport airshows to have rather nice fireworks displays in the evenings.

I also believe, but am not sure, that an airport can be declared out of service to allow a fireworks show at night.


User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 22, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 5517 times:

Quoting TCFC424 (Reply 19):
We are all thinking about small fireworks and big planes...but what about some GA aircraft? Any difference?

Probably depends on the aircraft, but a lot of light GA stuff isn't build for nearly the impact resistance that a jet is (for structural and certification reasons). I certainly wouldn't want to be in a Cessna 172 that got hit by a pro firework shell.

Tom.


User currently offline747fan From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1185 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5507 times:

What about the "big ones," such as the shells in the larger public firework shows that professionals do? I'd think the type that go off during the Macy's Fourth of July Firework Show in NYC would possibly pose a danger to aircraft, but I may be wrong.

User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17003 posts, RR: 67
Reply 24, posted (6 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5477 times:

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 7):

If it went off right beside a window I suppose it the shockwave might crack the window but that's far from being dangerous...mostly annoying (and expensive).

Imagine the dry cleaner bill. Oh the humanity!



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
25 MD11Engineer : Actually the size of pro mortar shells (for Japanese style fireworks) goes up to 50cm (about 1.5') and they pack quite a bang, but pro fireworks are
26 Buzz : Hi TCFC424, Buzz here. Every 4th of July there's a large fireworks show near Portland Oregon. It's often launched from a barge near Pearson Airfield (
27 DerekF : I was at a fireworks display on Saturday 3rd November at Cheadle near Manchester. The site is right under the 23R approach at about a 2.5 mile final s
28 Post contains links Mayhem : Something that is forbidden in the proximity of airports if i recall correct are those skybeamers like: http://ens.ch/ens/sternwarte/lichtverschmutzun
29 Post contains images HAWK21M : With Diwali being celebrated these days out here.This is something we were discussing at work the other day As long as no fireworks in the vicinity o
30 RamperMAF : I seem to remember reading something about a group of teens getting in serious trouble for attempting to hit approaching aircraft at IAH years ago. I
31 2H4 : Awhile back, I took a 152 up on the 4th of July specifically to watch fireworks from the air. I climbed up to maybe 1500' AGL (I can't remember), aim
32 HAWK21M : What were they thinking. What altitude wouls an Average Fireworks display reach. regds MEL
33 9VSIO : " target=_blank>http://ens.ch/ens/sternwarte/lichtve...3.jpg Haha, indeed! The pilot might suddenly think that it was WW2 again and initiate a bombing
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