Nicolaki From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (14 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3635 times:
I was watching that 717 flightdeck shot the other day when I realized that there was no basic mechanical instruments (Airspeed Indicator, Altimeter and Attitude Indicator) that could be used as a back up in case of electrical failure. I'm pretty sure that electrical systems are redundant and that you'd probably have better odds at winning the lotery rather than having a full blown electrical failure, but some people do win the loteries, and electrical failure happens.
So my question is, is there is mechanical instrumentation on the 717? If no what would one would do in case of an electrical failure on the 717 with IMC conditions?
Seagull From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 340 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (14 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3492 times:
No vacuum pump in a jet. The third attitude indicator is electrically powered off the battery bus in all of the aircraft I am familiar with. The standby airspeed/altimeter are similarly powered, although some aircraft types may have their own dedicated battery.
FDXmech From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3251 posts, RR: 30
Reply 6, posted (14 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3418 times:
A very good observation.
Just understand, whether the standby attitude indicator is mechanical or an LCD type, it requires electrical power to operate.
On the other hand, traditional standby altimeter/airspeed indicators (this includes the MD11) do not require power (other than the integral light and altimeter vibrator) to function, just a pitot/static source.
So perhaps the regulations were modified in that a backup altimeter/airspeed indicator (LCD type) now allow a power source to operate it.
JETPILOT From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3130 posts, RR: 27
Reply 7, posted (14 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3410 times:
The Standby attitude indicator isnt powered off the same bus as the FO/CA attitude indiators. It has its own indipendant power source (usually the aircrarft batery on the STBY bus). So unless the battery goes dead then you'll have electrical power to run the STBY attitude indicator for a minimum of 25 minutes.
The STBY bus is indipendant of all other busses. So failure of all other buses will have no effect on the STBY attitude indicator.
Operation of the STBY bus is checked before every flight by isolating it from the other bussses and running it off the battery simulating loss of all generators.
So weather its mechanical or not....it will still be powered.
The chances of losing all your busses including the STBY bus are astronomical.
The proper terminology for a mechanical type instrument is an anologue indicator....or in the biz its a "steam guage".
Critter From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 267 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (14 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3382 times:
The B717 not only has a backup buss for its instrumantation but some essential instruments have their own backup battery that will supply power for a minimum time if required. I am only giving you a general outline.........I'm sorry I don't feel like pulling out all of my books and diagrams at this time.
The total electrical failure that Neil is talking about was actually not a total failure but a loss of indication from the six large LCD's, all are powered by two Versitial Integrated Avionics (VIA) units. There apperently was an chance that both could loose power under a particular condition. Changes have since been made so that should not happen again. In that instance however, the crew still maintained use of the ISIS or Integrated Standby Instrument System, which provided all of the pertenant information for the crew. The ISIS is located in the fwd center pedestal.
P.S. There is only one Mechanical "clock type" gauge in the cockpit.........Can you name it!!!!!!!!!
XFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4300 posts, RR: 34
Reply 14, posted (14 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3269 times:
That ADI is an EADI.... so it's not a standard one.. still a graphic LCD display. The radios and transponder are the only ones that look like a normal standard system to me-- so im gonna also have to go with the Mickey Mouse watch on the copilot's wrist.
AA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 6282 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (14 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3260 times:
I believe both AirTran AND TWA had a couple of 717 electrical failures. It was due to condensation dripping into the computer system- both computers failed due to short ciruit. It happened immediately after the wheels came up, IIRC.
242 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 498 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (14 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3253 times:
>>>P.S. There is only one Mechanical "clock type" gauge in the cockpit.........Can you name it!!!!!!!!! <<<
>>>I will check back to tell you if you are correct. <<<
My memory is a little fuzzy, but I'm pretty sure there's an O2 gauge at the top of the overhead panel.
Oh, Airtrans little incident with ship 706 was caused by water leaking from a poorly designed fwd galley ice bin drain. It ended up dropping on the r/h BPCU (Bus Power Control Unit) and caused five of the six displays to go blank among other things.
Has Airtran installed catch pans above the equipment in the A/E bay to prevent future problems?
Critter From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 267 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (14 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3232 times:
242, You are correct. There is a little o2 gauge on the top of the overhead panel that is still a dial type. That is the only mechanical gauge in the cockpit other than the standby compass that someone mentioned. I doubt you will find any pictures of the compass however because it is were all stby compasses are on any DC-9 or MD-80, up behind the first officers head.
For those of you who mentioned the radio's. Everything on the B717 is digital. In fact other than the above mentioned o2 gauge, i believe the only other dial type gauges you will find on the aircraft are the pressure gauges mounted on the hyd system accumulators and the oxygen and fire bottles.
And yes the electrical failure was a result of condensation dripping down into the E&E compt. That is something that Boeing has fixed on all B717 and is now a part of the manufacturing process. So like I said, that should not happen again!!!!!
MD11Nut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (14 years 9 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3165 times:
A few all electric standby instruments have been allowed by the FAA (777 being the other one). CFR (code of federal regulations) 121.305 requires (part 121) aircraft 30 minutes of reliable operation from a power source, independent of the electrical generation system, for the third attitude instrument.
I believe that the FAA is more conservative than that in practice, a recent guidance memo stipulates that for an all-electric backup to be used it has to work for 60 minutes and more for ETOPS aircraft. No doubt the 717 standby meets this 60 minute "requirement".
AAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3581 posts, RR: 44
Reply 23, posted (14 years 9 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3155 times:
AA's 737-800s will be upgrading to a single combined electronic stand-by instrument display to replace the mechanical stand-by instruments of today. Probably will be a couple of years before all planes are modified.
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!