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Heathrow Parking And Gate Question  
User currently offlineRacingGreen07 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2690 times:

We all know that Heathrow is a busy place. However has it ever occurred that an aircraft lands but there is simply no gate space available e.g. due to late departures or something...

What happens in this case?

Furthermore, I read a few threads about parking slots and their costs to buy such slots running into the millions. Do they pay millions for 2-3hrs of use for just one slot for one day? Because my mind says that isn't feasible or maybe I'm looking at it in the wrong way. How does that work?

Kind Regards!

Many thanks!

18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6876 posts, RR: 75
Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2684 times:

Quoting RacingGreen07 (Thread starter):
We all know that Heathrow is a busy place. However has it ever occurred that an aircraft lands but there is simply no gate space available e.g. due to late departures or something...
What happens in this case?

You wait somewhere in the airport until a gate becomes available... that simple... I've waited 45 mins for a gate before... at LHR...



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineBellerophon From United Kingdom, joined May 2002, 583 posts, RR: 58
Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2673 times:

RacingGreen07

...has it ever occurred that an aircraft lands but there is simply no gate space available...

This occurs every day at LHR.

...What happens in this case? ...

You wait.......until one becomes available !!!

Regards

Bellerophon


User currently offlineRacingGreen07 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2672 times:

Quoting Bellerophon (Reply 2):
RacingGreen07

...has it ever occurred that an aircraft lands but there is simply no gate space available...

This occurs every day at LHR.

...What happens in this case? ...

You wait.......until one becomes available !!!

Regards

Bellerophon

LOL We've established that. Thanks.

Any idea about the other questions?


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17044 posts, RR: 66
Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2666 times:

Quoting RacingGreen07 (Thread starter):
Furthermore, I read a few threads about parking slots and their costs to buy such slots running into the millions. Do they pay millions for 2-3hrs of use for just one slot for one day? Because my mind says that isn't feasible or maybe I'm looking at it in the wrong way. How does that work?

I would guess "millions" is a yearly fee. And the cash hemorrhage doesn't end there. You have catering, aircraft servicing, various taxes, greasing the wheels.  Wink



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineEmel From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 22 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2645 times:

Quoting RacingGreen07 (Thread starter):
Furthermore, I read a few threads about parking slots and their costs to buy such slots running into the millions. Do they pay millions for 2-3hrs of use for just one slot for one day? Because my mind says that isn't feasible or maybe I'm looking at it in the wrong way. How does that work?

What costs millions at LHR is the landing slots, as they are in such short supply. They are unofficially traded at huge premiums, and are highly prized. With the open skies policy with the USA coming into effect early next year, it has made landing slots become even more valuable. It is alleged that a single daily slot has been "sold" for something northwards of 40 million USD.

I believe that all available slots are already owned by the airlines currently flying into Heathrow, and unless further runway capacity is created, any newcomers will have to "buy" them from existing users, hence the high price.


User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6876 posts, RR: 75
Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2632 times:

Quoting RacingGreen07 (Thread starter):
Furthermore, I read a few threads about parking slots and their costs to buy such slots running into the millions. Do they pay millions for 2-3hrs of use for just one slot for one day? Because my mind says that isn't feasible or maybe I'm looking at it in the wrong way. How does that work?

If it's a one off cost then...

Let's say it's for your 200 seater coming in, once a day... plus some cargo... the slot costs 4 million dollars...
If each trip has a gross margin of 5000 bucks... that slot will pay itself back in 27 months! Well, actually, in just a little over 1 year as you go IN and OUT...

Let's say it's not for your 200 seater, but for your 120 seat 734 in 2 class config... and say the trip costs as much as your economy fare... the biz class is sold at 400 bucks a seat, you get 10 pax sitting in Biz, once you get 10,000 biz pax going in and out of there, it's paid back... at 10 biz seats a plane, it'll pay itself in 500 return trips...

Of course, that's the SIMPLE version! *grin*

Now if it's an annual fee, well, fly a damn A380 there instead! LOL

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9651 posts, RR: 52
Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2615 times:

Quoting Emel (Reply 5):
I believe that all available slots are already owned by the airlines currently flying into Heathrow, and unless further runway capacity is created, any newcomers will have to "buy" them from existing users, hence the high price.

That's a common misbelief. There are slots available at Heathrow, however they are not at desirable times. Midday slots are highly prized and go for high prices. However a late evening slot is often available. The problem is that different slots are available at different times of the week. Also an arrival and departure slot might not be timed well. But if an airline really wants to start LHR service, they can. They just won't be operating convenient schedules. They might have a 9pm departure to the US which would give a miserable arrival time of midnight, which would keep passengers away.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineEmel From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 22 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2613 times:

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 6):
If it's a one off cost then...

The landing slot "fee" is only one sum in the equation.

There are are various other charges made by the airport on each occasion that slot is used; foe example for landing, parking, baggage handling, passenger handling, etc. On top of that your local handling agents will have their own charges.

Heathrow is one of the most, if not the most, expensive airports in the world to fly in and out of. Yet, with all of it's faults, it remains the airport of choice for enough passengers, that it continues to convince the airlines that it is the place they want to use.


User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6876 posts, RR: 75
Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2560 times:

Quoting Emel (Reply 8):
The landing slot "fee" is only one sum in the equation.

There are are various other charges made by the airport on each occasion that slot is used; foe example for landing, parking, baggage handling, passenger handling, etc. On top of that your local handling agents will have their own charges.

Let's not forget parking at peak and off peak hours at LHR, also pax handling charges at peak and off peak etc... the gross margin I was theorizing assumes it is net of these landing, parking, handling etc charges (ie: already included in the trip cost), just to show how such a hideous slot fee can still make the route feasible... albeit with more challenge than if no slot fees were imposed.

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2496 times:

Quoting RacingGreen07 (Thread starter):
We all know that Heathrow is a busy place. However has it ever occurred that an aircraft lands but there is simply no gate space available e.g. due to late departures or something

Very common at LHR.

If theres no Gate/Bay available,The Aircraft would be asked to hold on to the Taxitrack until one is available.

Just a thought.Would Terminal 5 readiness help in solving this problem & what would its duration be before it gets packed up too theoritically.

regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17044 posts, RR: 66
Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2493 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 10):
Would Terminal 5 readiness help in solving this problem

Most definitely. Not only will more gates be available, but I am guessing there will be fewer narrow alleys constricting traffic. IIRC maintenance will also be easier, as engine runs can be performed at T5 without disturbing as many NIMBYs. This would extend operating hours.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2488 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 11):
as engine runs can be performed at T5 without disturbing as many NIMBYs. This would extend operating hours.

Thats great news for Mx.
Out here till date there are no such restrictions on nose levels at Airports so thats a big help for Mx work at nights.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17044 posts, RR: 66
Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2470 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 12):
Out here till date there are no such restrictions on nose levels at Airports so thats a big help for Mx work at nights.

LHR really is in the middle of a bunch of 'burbs except for the western end where T5 is being built. And trying to explain to the residents that the airport was there first is apparently not very popular.

Furthermore, the airside of T5 is between the runways so it's not near the perimeter like the maintenance facilities at the eastern end (with the famous road crossing).

[Edited 2007-11-11 22:45:05]


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineEmel From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 22 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2453 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 11):
Most definitely. Not only will more gates be available, but I am guessing there will be fewer narrow alleys constricting traffic.

In the short term, the opening next year of T5 will not be of any benefit. This is because T3 and T1 will be closed (I don't think together) to be completely overhauled. This means that LHR will remain overcrowded for some considerable time.

In addition, the government has just announced that they do want to increase traffic at Heathrow. They state that a new runway could not be considered before 2015, due to local difficulties, i.e. objections from the villages to the West of the airport, some of which have been in existence long before aircraft were flying.

They propose that the CAA could introduce "mixed" mode use of the runways, unlike "segregated" mode as at present. They claim this would increase the capacity from 480,000 flights to 550,000.

Watch that space, because I can remember the very early days of the airport. Check-in was conducted in a tent, and you walked on wooden planks across muddy fields to get anywhere. And we talk about the good old days.


User currently offlineJetlagged From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 2556 posts, RR: 24
Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2432 times:

Quoting Emel (Reply 14):
In the short term, the opening next year of T5 will not be of any benefit. This is because T3 and T1 will be closed (I don't think together) to be completely overhauled. This means that LHR will remain overcrowded for some considerable time.

The last time this happened to me the aircraft we were waiting for could not pushback because all departures were delayed by ATC. Why not push this aircraft onto the ramp and have it wait there?

The problem is particularly bad at T4, so opening T5 will immediately help BA, who will take advantage of the extra gates. I have not experienced any long delays getting to a gate at LHR, nor arrival at a remote stand for that matter, with any other airline. There's nothing worse than arriving at BA on a red-eye flight, only to find you have to wait 45 minutes for the remote stand to become available, then wait for buses, airstairs or both. For very early morning arrivals there's also the frustrating wait for a tow-in. The sooner T4 is bulldozed the better, IMHO.



The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
User currently offlineCoolGuy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 414 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2417 times:

I've landed at LHR with no gates available and the VS plane went to a stand which was designated 5XX (X = 0 to 9, can't remember the exact number) and took a bus from there. I guess that means I departed my aircraft from terminal 5!

User currently offlineLHR27C From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 1279 posts, RR: 16
Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2405 times:

Quoting Emel (Reply 14):
In the short term, the opening next year of T5 will not be of any benefit. This is because T3 and T1 will be closed (I don't think together) to be completely overhauled. This means that LHR will remain overcrowded for some considerable time.

I think you mean T2 and T1 for Heathrow East? T3 is in the process of being renovated and should be complete by end of the year.

Nonetheless, the opening of T5 will be of almost immediate benefit. T2 will be closed first for the construction of the southern part of Heathrow East. Compare the number of stands being closed at T2 with the number coming available at T5 and there is a considerable increase. T5 should go a long way to solving LHR's stand capacity problems - what it cannot help with is delays in arrivals and departures from the enormously intensive use of the two runways.



Once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned forever skyward
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 18, posted (6 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2367 times:



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 13):
And trying to explain to the residents that the airport was there first is apparently not very popular.

Exactly.They knew there was an Airport there in the 1st place.
Running a powerplant I can understand but leave the APU alone  Smile
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
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