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WN 737 Cockpit  
User currently offline744lover From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 177 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 4765 times:

Hi there,


I wonder why WN removed the VNAV button from their 737 cockpits.


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Photo © Justin Idle


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Photo © Dan Brownlee



Shouldn't this feature reduce pilot's workload? Let's say in a CIVET approach into LAX where altitude restrictions are a pain in the a... It would help a lot


Any hint?


Best regards!
GHN

[Edited 2007-11-23 07:58:43]

39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineModesto2 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2767 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 4751 times:

WN doesn't have autothrottle installed in its fleet - therefore, VNAV is inop.

User currently offlineLASOctoberB6 From Japan, joined Nov 2006, 2380 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4734 times:



Quoting Modesto2 (Reply 1):
WN doesn't have autothrottle installed in its fleet - therefore, VNAV is inop.

Why?



[NOT IN SERVICE] {WEStJet}
User currently offline744lover From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 177 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4691 times:



Quoting Modesto2 (Reply 1):
WN doesn't have autothrottle installed in its fleet

You can see on the first and second photos that the A/T engage switch is there, therefore it should have A/T operational.


User currently offlineFlynavy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 4568 times:

There are no auto-throttle engage switches on the trust levers.

As for the reasoning, it's most likely for commonality between their 733/735 and 737NG fleets to optimize pilot familiarity. I would imagine their classic 737s are without VNAV as well.

This is a Delta 737-832 with VNAV/Auto-Throttle installed:



[Edited 2007-11-23 23:24:13]

User currently offline737tdi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 635 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4523 times:
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O.K.: Here goes. Modesto 2, WN does have autothrottle installed. It's just deactivated. It would take me no time to have it working. Same as the VNAV.

Flynavy: What you have highlighted are actually referred to as TOGA switches, they control quite abit more than throttles. This is the exact configuration of WN's throttles.

As for the answer to why it is not used. WN does not use autopilot to land which is the main purpose of autothrottle, this being said, why have it there if you don't use it for it's intended purpose it's more expense in equipment and downtime when it breaks. As for the policy of not using the autopilot for landing that's up to someone with a paygrade much higher than mine, they have kept us profitable for many, many years so I defer to their wisdom. Not much help but there it is.

737tdi


User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 23
Reply 6, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4502 times:



Quoting 737tdi (Reply 5):
It would take me no time to have it working. Same as the VNAV.

And then the crews and ops spec need to be signed off on the use of it, which I've heard in the rumor mill is coming!



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2194 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4464 times:



Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 6):
And then the crews and ops spec need to be signed off on the use of it, which I've heard in the rumor mill is coming!

As is usually the case with Southwest, slow, methodical, effective, profitable change. Not a bad way to do business. I'm no MBA, but it seems to have worked well for about 35 years.



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offline737tdi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 635 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4447 times:
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I really don't think so but I don't have any clue. I have no idea what is going on the flight ops side of things, until they come downn with the EA or CCO to change a system. I think we will stay the same.

737tdi
.


User currently offlinePilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3139 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4170 times:

They don't use A/T to reduce training costs much like the PFD's having a traditional instrument setup. At one time they were still operating steam guaged aircraft in addition to the NGs and this allowed the crews to operate both models.


DMI
User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 23
Reply 10, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4111 times:



Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 9):
much like the PFD's having a traditional instrument setup. At one time they were still operating steam guaged aircraft in addition to the NGs and this allowed the crews to operate both models.

So I wonder how much more CO training costs are then as the B73X crews fly all the round dial 300's, 500's, and the NG's?



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offline744lover From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 177 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4107 times:



Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 9):
They don't use A/T to reduce training costs

Hi Pilotpip,

I think that the training required to operate the A/T and VNAV would be minimal, so to speak. Think of the advantages of reduced pilot workload. Another point is that the future will have based on VNAV approaches, like GNS and RNAV. WN should train their pilots for that!



Best Regards!
GHN


User currently offlineJetlagged From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4055 times:



Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 9):
They don't use A/T to reduce training costs much like the PFD's having a traditional instrument setup. At one time they were still operating steam guaged aircraft in addition to the NGs and this allowed the crews to operate both models.

The extra training for A/T use is minimal if anything at all. The only extra cost to allow common Classic and NG pilot rating is differences training to cover the different scan technique. All 737's have the same type rating.

Southwest seem to have a culture which prefers to avoid automation. Until recently they didn't approve the use autobrake either. It's as if they want to fly using the same techniques they used on their original 737-200s.



The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31568 posts, RR: 57
Reply 13, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4051 times:



Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 12):
Southwest seem to have a culture which prefers to avoid automation. Until recently they didn't approve the use autobrake either

why would they want to do that.Technology when available should be utilised.
i'm only thinking did they experience too many malfunctions in these systems to warrant this.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineJetlagged From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 24
Reply 14, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4046 times:



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 13):
why would they want to do that.Technology when available should be utilised.
i'm only thinking did they experience too many malfunctions in these systems to warrant this.

I think it was to keep flight procedures the same as they had been before on the 737-200, but I'm open to correction on this. I don't think it was a reliability issue.



The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
User currently offlineBarney Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 884 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4029 times:

The statements made so far pretty much sum it up - in a nutshell, it comes down to controlling costs. I do know that these things are constantly being reevaluated and imo, will come in to play sooner rather than later. Flight Ops is in the process of implementing RNP with the help of a company started by some really smart guys from AS (Naverus - http://www.naverus.com/Home.htm) which I believe will require VNAV and AT's.

[Edited 2007-11-27 11:14:49]


...from the Banana Republic....
User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 23
Reply 16, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4022 times:



Quoting Barney Captain (Reply 15):
Flight Ops is in the process of implementing RNP with the help of a company started by some really smart guys from AS (Naverus - http://www.naverus.com/Home.htm)

Oh way smart guys.....NAVERUS is the only known hope to take on the 800 lb gorilla (FAA) and their methodical implementation process. Great reading on their website.



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineBarney Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 884 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 4000 times:

Yea, this stuff seems like it will be VERY cool - I understand you guys are using it to some degree in IAH. Apparently we will be able to do circling precision approaches down to CAT 1 mins in places like MDW on runway 22L that currently have no precision approach. Sweet. I imagine VNAV is required, but do you know if the AT's are?

BTW, heres a better link to their site http://www.naverus.com/



...from the Banana Republic....
User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 23
Reply 18, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3928 times:



Quoting Barney Captain (Reply 17):
I understand you guys are using it to some degree in IAH

Yep,RNP's should show up in around 7 months in the form of some specials initially.



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineJetlagged From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 24
Reply 19, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3922 times:

Since Boeing already designed RNP capability into the 737NG, why do Southwest need to employ a consulting firm to implement RNP procedures now?


The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
User currently offlineJAGflyer From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 3458 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3901 times:

Isn't A/T needed to maintain speed? I doubt a pilot would want to keep adjusting the throttles while in cruise on a 4 hour flight.


Support the beer and soda can industry, recycle old airplanes!
User currently offlineBarney Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 884 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3860 times:



Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 20):
I doubt a pilot would want to keep adjusting the throttles while in cruise on a 4 hour flight.

Or 6 1/2 from PHL to OAK, but that's the way we do it.



...from the Banana Republic....
User currently offlineShyFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3757 times:



Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 19):
Since Boeing already designed RNP capability into the 737NG, why do Southwest need to employ a consulting firm to implement RNP procedures now?

Just because the aircraft is certified to do something, doesn't automatically mean the airline has been certified to do it.

I think that's the way it works.


User currently offlineAlias1024 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2715 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3746 times:



Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 10):
So I wonder how much more CO training costs are then as the B73X crews fly all the round dial 300's, 500's, and the NG's?

CO also has the round dial representation on their NGs.



It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 23
Reply 24, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3725 times:



Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 23):
CO also has the round dial representation on their NGs.

Where?

Quoting ShyFlyer (Reply 22):
I think that's the way it works.

I know to fly an RNAV (RNP) approach the operator must be certified just the same as with a RNAV (GPS) approach.



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
25 Post contains images Jetlagged : Of course, but it still sounds like there's some unnecessary "wheel designing" going on. However, from personal experience I can understand that, wit
26 744lover : It seems like someone who prefers to use TELEX, when we have internet and real-time systems, just because they used it in the past and don't want to g
27 HAWK21M : Its upto the company to decide how to balance Costs with technology that would make things easier. regds MEL
28 Post contains links and images ShyFlyer : 700: 800: View Large View MediumPhoto © Dan Rabolt 900: View Large View MediumPhoto © Jarek Dabrowski [epwa_spotters] I always thought Cont
29 Jetlagged : Is the EFIS or PFD/ND presentation style on the 737NG pilot selectable? It seems strange that one airline should have different presentations on some
30 IAHFLYR : Very nice
31 ShyFlyer : Selectable by the pilot, no. I recall reading in a thread here some time back that the display style can be changed from one to the other rather simp
32 Tdscanuck : I'm almost positive it's a program pin on the DEU (Display Electronics Unit). So a simple wiring change would flip the displays. Tom.
33 Transpac787 : In the 737-924 picture, the captain side is PFD/ND, while the FO side is the old 6-pack display.
34 Jetlagged : Well spotted! It's a pre-delivery shot, so maybe they had it specially set up to show the two display options.
35 Max Q : 'The main purpose of autothrottles is for autoland' Rubbish, it is a small part of the equation, we use autothrottles throughout the flight from take-
36 QantasHeavy : I would have thought the auto throttle would produce much better fuel economy, like cruise control in a car. And therefore pay for itself for any trai
37 Barney Captain : Seems like its been 10 or so years since LNAV went live. Our work towards getting RNP up and running AFAIK will require VNAV but I'm still not clear
38 SPREE34 : Two different things. Sort of like OWNING a car doesn't mean you can DRIVE a car. FAA is also way behind the airlines in technical savvy.
39 Barney Captain : Exactly. From what Flight Ops is telling us, this will be the single biggest undertaking in their history. Apparently it goes way beyond aircraft/air
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