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Hypothetical About F/A-18 On Short Runway  
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17024 posts, RR: 67
Posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3731 times:

I know we are talking military but this isn't really pertinent to military ops. It's just aviation with a military aircraft.

So I was reading this book and the author has an F/A-18 (unspecified version) landing and taking off on 3500 ft of runway. This is referred to as "short". Questions:
- Can an F/A-18 land and take off from a 3500 foot runway?
- With airliners, take-off uses more runway than landing. Do afterburners/"overpowered" engines change this equation? That is, will an F/A-18 be able to use the same shorter distance for take-off than landing
- For an absolute max power take-off, when would the afterburners be engaged? At brake release? At a certain IAS?

Cheerio.


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4681 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3727 times:



Quoting Starlionblue (Thread starter):
Can an F/A-18 land and take off from a 3500 foot runway?

I'd say yes.

Quoting Starlionblue (Thread starter):
With airliners, take-off uses more runway than landing. Do afterburners/"overpowered" engines change this equation? That is, will an F/A-18 be able to use the same shorter distance for take-off than landing

Yes. This is common on other fighters, too.

Quoting Starlionblue (Thread starter):
For an absolute max power take-off, when would the afterburners be engaged? At brake release? At a certain IAS?

Before brake release. But make sure you don't destroy the tyres.  Smile But yes, I'd think at brake release is more common.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineDl757md From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1562 posts, RR: 16
Reply 2, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3723 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Thread starter):
Can an F/A-18 land and take off from a 3500 foot runway?

Yes. It can take-off in quite a bit shorter distance than that when lightly loaded. The Navy quotes the F-18 E/F max take-off weight distance as 3680 ft and min take-off weight distance as 1305 ft.
http://www.uscost.net/AircraftCharacteristics/acfa18ef.htm

DL757Md

[Edited 2007-11-24 02:13:40]


757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17024 posts, RR: 67
Reply 3, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3702 times:

Thanks guys. A few more questions. In the book the F/A-18 has an engine out while climbing out, and goes into a spin. If we assume it's an E variant:
- Wouldn't the flight control system compensate automatically?
- If not, then what?
- Is it likely a pilot would just lose control or would the pilot + vertical tails be able to deal with it unless the fleshbag was screwing up by the numbers?

What about the non "Super" variants?

Thx.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineJetlagged From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 2546 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 3659 times:

What causes it to go into a spin? The F-18 has very good high AOA performance, so departure is unlikely. Is the book written by someone who understands aviation, or is it Top Gun style fiction.


The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17024 posts, RR: 67
Reply 5, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 3647 times:



Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 4):
What causes it to go into a spin? The F-18 has very good high AOA performance, so departure is unlikely. Is the book written by someone who understands aviation, or is it Top Gun style fiction.

Not specified apart from an engine going out. But I agree that spinning out just because of an engine out seems a bit extreme. That's a scenario airframers design for and pilots train for (a lot).

The book is written by John Ringo. He seems to understand spec ops very well but aviation less well. It's not really "Top Gun style fiction" since it's not about aviation per se.  Wink Most of the action takes place on the surface.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineJetlagged From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 2546 posts, RR: 24
Reply 6, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 3638 times:



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 5):
Most of the action takes place on the surface.

No depth to the story then.  Wink

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 5):
John Ringo

Any relation to John Paul Georgian Ringo?



The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
User currently offlineFlipdewaf From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 1568 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 3615 times:
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the 3500ft runway may be considered short because if there is an aborted takeoff then the military planes wont be very good at slowing, their brakes dont tend to be as good as civilian aircraft (talking about fast jets not cargo planes i've seen the C-17 stop in what seemed like about 4inches)

Fred


User currently offlineFLY2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 3559 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Thread starter):
off on 3500 ft of runway.

At the miramar airshow an F/A-18E took off in just over 1000ft. I saw it rotate just after the 1000ft distance marker, then proceeded to do a zoom climb.

I've also seen F-15s do it in closer to 700ft.

I wish my car had that power to weight ratio. 

[Edited 2007-11-24 14:29:54]

User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17024 posts, RR: 67
Reply 9, posted (6 years 9 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 3480 times:

Thanks for the replies, but are there any thoughts on the engine out in Reply 3?

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 6):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 5):
John Ringo

Any relation to John Paul Georgian Ringo?

Funny.  Wink

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 6):

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 5):
Most of the action takes place on the surface.

No depth to the story then.

 rotfl  Well, the Paladin of Shadows series (starting with "Ghost") is not for everyone. It's fun and action packed (lots of violence and "non mainstream" sex). It's also rather "conservative" (tradiional definition). Then again the opinions of the characters aren't necessarily those of the author.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6371 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3352 times:



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 3):
If we assume it's an E variant:
- Wouldn't the flight control system compensate automatically?
- If not, then what?
- Is it likely a pilot would just lose control or would the pilot + vertical tails be able to deal with it unless the fleshbag was screwing up by the numbers?

Probably not...I do know that Air Force pilots who logged all their time in the F-15 usually get a "Centerline Thrust only" tacked onto their civilian equivalent multiengine rating if they go for the FAA conversion of military time to civilian ratings...this is because the engines on the F-15 are so close to the aircraft centerline, that as far as asymetric thrust goes, an engine out is almost a non-event (it is an event for lots of other reasons, however). I don't imagine that the F/A-18 is much different in that respect  Wink

I'd imagine that if you wanted to loose control of an F-18 that's down to one engine, one of the best ways to do so would be to ignore the singe-engine envelope limitations. Anyone know what Vmc in an F-18 is? I'd imagine that it's going to be pretty close to stall since the thrust is near the centerline...

I don't know if you know this or not, Starlion, but Vmc is the minimum control airspeed on a multi-engined aircraft with a single engine inoperative and the other at full power. Ignore that limitation, and the plane will flip over on it's back  Sad



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User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 60
Reply 11, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3350 times:
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Quoting KELPkid (Reply 10):
I do know that Air Force pilots who logged all their time in the F-15 usually get a "Centerline Thrust only" tacked onto their civilian equivalent multiengine rating

F-14 pilots also had centerline thrust restrictions in such cases....which I found surprising, given how far apart the engines are placed:


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User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17024 posts, RR: 67
Reply 12, posted (6 years 9 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3342 times:



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 10):

I'd imagine that if you wanted to loose control of an F-18 that's down to one engine, one of the best ways to do so would be to ignore the singe-engine envelope limitations. Anyone know what Vmc in an F-18 is? I'd imagine that it's going to be pretty close to stall since the thrust is near the centerline...

I don't know if you know this or not, Starlion, but Vmc is the minimum control airspeed on a multi-engined aircraft with a single engine inoperative and the other at full power. Ignore that limitation, and the plane will flip over on it's back Sad

So basically if the pilot doesn't screw up he/she could control the situation rather handily even at full thrust with afterburner?



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6371 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (6 years 9 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3295 times:



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 12):
So basically if the pilot doesn't screw up he/she could control the situation rather handily even at full thrust with afterburner?

Okay, well, anything I say at this point is obviously pure conjecture, as I am not an F-18 driver Big grin (nor did I ever claim to be one...).

My guess is that if you wanted to break off into a spin while single engined in an F-18, one of the best ways to do that would be to get into (or maybe close to) a stall, it depends on the Vmc speed of the bird at the configuration being flown in...effected by such factors as war load, flap settings, gear up vs. gear down, etc. etc.

Also, if the reason that the airplane is operating in single-engine config. is due to some outside action (for example, man-portable heat seeking missile hit), it is very possible that additional airframe damage could be contributing to the tendency for the plane to want to turn one way or the other, and would most definitely have other undesirable effects on aircraft performance  Wink



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17024 posts, RR: 67
Reply 14, posted (6 years 9 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3285 times:

Heh. Thanks for that KELPkid.


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6371 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (6 years 9 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3217 times:



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 14):
Heh. Thanks for that KELPkid.

No problemo. And if you ever want a truly far-fetched aviation novel (although it was written by an aviator), try Dale Brown's "Flight of the Old Dog"  Smile . I think though, that with the Cold War being over, you'll find the scenario in the book to be, well, ahem, a bit outdated. How the world has changed in the last 18 years...



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
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