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 Hypothetical About F/A-18 On Short Runway
 Starlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17661 posts, RR: 65Posted Sat Nov 24 2007 01:40:26 UTC (8 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 5101 times:

 I know we are talking military but this isn't really pertinent to military ops. It's just aviation with a military aircraft. So I was reading this book and the author has an F/A-18 (unspecified version) landing and taking off on 3500 ft of runway. This is referred to as "short". Questions: - Can an F/A-18 land and take off from a 3500 foot runway? - With airliners, take-off uses more runway than landing. Do afterburners/"overpowered" engines change this equation? That is, will an F/A-18 be able to use the same shorter distance for take-off than landing - For an absolute max power take-off, when would the afterburners be engaged? At brake release? At a certain IAS? Cheerio.
 "There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 A342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4927 posts, RR: 3 Reply 1, posted Sat Nov 24 2007 01:43:54 UTC (8 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 5097 times:

 Quoting Starlionblue (Thread starter):Can an F/A-18 land and take off from a 3500 foot runway?

I'd say yes.

 Quoting Starlionblue (Thread starter):With airliners, take-off uses more runway than landing. Do afterburners/"overpowered" engines change this equation? That is, will an F/A-18 be able to use the same shorter distance for take-off than landing

Yes. This is common on other fighters, too.

 Quoting Starlionblue (Thread starter):For an absolute max power take-off, when would the afterburners be engaged? At brake release? At a certain IAS?

Before brake release. But make sure you don't destroy the tyres.   But yes, I'd think at brake release is more common.

 Exceptions confirm the rule.
 Dl757md From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1564 posts, RR: 15 Reply 2, posted Sat Nov 24 2007 02:10:12 UTC (8 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5093 times:

 Quoting Starlionblue (Thread starter): Can an F/A-18 land and take off from a 3500 foot runway?

Yes. It can take-off in quite a bit shorter distance than that when lightly loaded. The Navy quotes the F-18 E/F max take-off weight distance as 3680 ft and min take-off weight distance as 1305 ft.
http://www.uscost.net/AircraftCharacteristics/acfa18ef.htm

DL757Md

[Edited 2007-11-24 02:13:40]

 757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 Starlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17661 posts, RR: 65 Reply 3, posted Sat Nov 24 2007 03:47:33 UTC (8 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5072 times:

 Thanks guys. A few more questions. In the book the F/A-18 has an engine out while climbing out, and goes into a spin. If we assume it's an E variant: - Wouldn't the flight control system compensate automatically? - If not, then what? - Is it likely a pilot would just lose control or would the pilot + vertical tails be able to deal with it unless the fleshbag was screwing up by the numbers? What about the non "Super" variants? Thx.
 "There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 Jetlagged From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 2620 posts, RR: 25 Reply 4, posted Sat Nov 24 2007 07:19:58 UTC (8 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5029 times:

 What causes it to go into a spin? The F-18 has very good high AOA performance, so departure is unlikely. Is the book written by someone who understands aviation, or is it Top Gun style fiction.
 The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
 Starlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17661 posts, RR: 65 Reply 5, posted Sat Nov 24 2007 07:47:17 UTC (8 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5017 times:

 Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 4):What causes it to go into a spin? The F-18 has very good high AOA performance, so departure is unlikely. Is the book written by someone who understands aviation, or is it Top Gun style fiction.

Not specified apart from an engine going out. But I agree that spinning out just because of an engine out seems a bit extreme. That's a scenario airframers design for and pilots train for (a lot).

The book is written by John Ringo. He seems to understand spec ops very well but aviation less well. It's not really "Top Gun style fiction" since it's not about aviation per se.   Most of the action takes place on the surface.

 "There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 Jetlagged From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 2620 posts, RR: 25 Reply 6, posted Sat Nov 24 2007 08:10:45 UTC (8 years 6 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 5008 times:

 Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 5):Most of the action takes place on the surface.

No depth to the story then.

 Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 5):John Ringo

Any relation to John Paul Georgian Ringo?

 The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
 Flipdewaf From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 1811 posts, RR: 1 Reply 7, posted Sat Nov 24 2007 09:45:34 UTC (8 years 6 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 4985 times:

 the 3500ft runway may be considered short because if there is an aborted takeoff then the military planes wont be very good at slowing, their brakes dont tend to be as good as civilian aircraft (talking about fast jets not cargo planes i've seen the C-17 stop in what seemed like about 4inches) Fred
 FLY2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted Sat Nov 24 2007 14:23:15 UTC (8 years 6 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 4929 times:

 Quoting Starlionblue (Thread starter): off on 3500 ft of runway.

At the miramar airshow an F/A-18E took off in just over 1000ft. I saw it rotate just after the 1000ft distance marker, then proceeded to do a zoom climb.

I've also seen F-15s do it in closer to 700ft.

I wish my car had that power to weight ratio.

[Edited 2007-11-24 14:29:54]

 Starlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17661 posts, RR: 65 Reply 9, posted Sun Nov 25 2007 00:10:56 UTC (8 years 6 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 4850 times:

Thanks for the replies, but are there any thoughts on the engine out in Reply 3?

 Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 6):Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 5): John Ringo Any relation to John Paul Georgian Ringo?

Funny.

 Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 6): Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 5): Most of the action takes place on the surface. No depth to the story then.

Well, the Paladin of Shadows series (starting with "Ghost") is not for everyone. It's fun and action packed (lots of violence and "non mainstream" sex). It's also rather "conservative" (tradiional definition). Then again the opinions of the characters aren't necessarily those of the author.

 "There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 KELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6833 posts, RR: 3 Reply 10, posted Sun Nov 25 2007 22:00:12 UTC (8 years 6 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4722 times:

 Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 3):If we assume it's an E variant: - Wouldn't the flight control system compensate automatically? - If not, then what? - Is it likely a pilot would just lose control or would the pilot + vertical tails be able to deal with it unless the fleshbag was screwing up by the numbers?

Probably not...I do know that Air Force pilots who logged all their time in the F-15 usually get a "Centerline Thrust only" tacked onto their civilian equivalent multiengine rating if they go for the FAA conversion of military time to civilian ratings...this is because the engines on the F-15 are so close to the aircraft centerline, that as far as asymetric thrust goes, an engine out is almost a non-event (it is an event for lots of other reasons, however). I don't imagine that the F/A-18 is much different in that respect

I'd imagine that if you wanted to loose control of an F-18 that's down to one engine, one of the best ways to do so would be to ignore the singe-engine envelope limitations. Anyone know what Vmc in an F-18 is? I'd imagine that it's going to be pretty close to stall since the thrust is near the centerline...

I don't know if you know this or not, Starlion, but Vmc is the minimum control airspeed on a multi-engined aircraft with a single engine inoperative and the other at full power. Ignore that limitation, and the plane will flip over on it's back

 Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8957 posts, RR: 56 Reply 11, posted Sun Nov 25 2007 22:07:25 UTC (8 years 6 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4720 times:

 Quoting KELPkid (Reply 10):I do know that Air Force pilots who logged all their time in the F-15 usually get a "Centerline Thrust only" tacked onto their civilian equivalent multiengine rating

F-14 pilots also had centerline thrust restrictions in such cases....which I found surprising, given how far apart the engines are placed:

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2H4

 Intentionally Left Blank
 Starlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17661 posts, RR: 65 Reply 12, posted Sun Nov 25 2007 22:51:41 UTC (8 years 6 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4712 times:

 Quoting KELPkid (Reply 10): I'd imagine that if you wanted to loose control of an F-18 that's down to one engine, one of the best ways to do so would be to ignore the singe-engine envelope limitations. Anyone know what Vmc in an F-18 is? I'd imagine that it's going to be pretty close to stall since the thrust is near the centerline... I don't know if you know this or not, Starlion, but Vmc is the minimum control airspeed on a multi-engined aircraft with a single engine inoperative and the other at full power. Ignore that limitation, and the plane will flip over on it's back Sad

So basically if the pilot doesn't screw up he/she could control the situation rather handily even at full thrust with afterburner?

 "There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 KELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6833 posts, RR: 3 Reply 13, posted Mon Nov 26 2007 07:53:06 UTC (8 years 6 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4665 times:

 Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 12):So basically if the pilot doesn't screw up he/she could control the situation rather handily even at full thrust with afterburner?

Okay, well, anything I say at this point is obviously pure conjecture, as I am not an F-18 driver  (nor did I ever claim to be one...).

My guess is that if you wanted to break off into a spin while single engined in an F-18, one of the best ways to do that would be to get into (or maybe close to) a stall, it depends on the Vmc speed of the bird at the configuration being flown in...effected by such factors as war load, flap settings, gear up vs. gear down, etc. etc.

Also, if the reason that the airplane is operating in single-engine config. is due to some outside action (for example, man-portable heat seeking missile hit), it is very possible that additional airframe damage could be contributing to the tendency for the plane to want to turn one way or the other, and would most definitely have other undesirable effects on aircraft performance

 Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 Starlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17661 posts, RR: 65 Reply 14, posted Mon Nov 26 2007 08:34:17 UTC (8 years 6 months 6 days ago) and read 4655 times:

 Heh. Thanks for that KELPkid.
 "There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 KELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6833 posts, RR: 3 Reply 15, posted Mon Nov 26 2007 15:21:02 UTC (8 years 6 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 4587 times:

 Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 14):Heh. Thanks for that KELPkid.

No problemo. And if you ever want a truly far-fetched aviation novel (although it was written by an aviator), try Dale Brown's "Flight of the Old Dog"   . I think though, that with the Cold War being over, you'll find the scenario in the book to be, well, ahem, a bit outdated. How the world has changed in the last 18 years...

 Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
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