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Dispatcher Priviledges?  
User currently offlineFXfan From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 85 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3514 times:

Are dispatchers considered crew members? can they jumpseat on most airlines? if so, are they CASS approved?

46 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAirTran737 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3702 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3504 times:
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Quoting FXfan (Thread starter):
Are dispatchers considered crew members?

No

Quoting FXfan (Thread starter):
can they jumpseat on most airlines?

Some airlines will allow dispatchers to jumpseat, there aren;t many though.

Quoting FXfan (Thread starter):
if so, are they CASS approved?

Depends on the airline. Our dispatchers (World Airways) are on the CASS System



Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
User currently offlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5970 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (6 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3498 times:



Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 1):
Some airlines will allow dispatchers to jumpseat, there aren;t many though.

It mainly depends on the jumpseat agreement negotiated between the airlines and pilots. At most airlines, dispatchers share the same list as the pilots, with exceptions noted. If you aren't in CASS, some airlines won't let you on. Period. At most others, though, if they have no way of verifying you, then it's an open seat in back at PIC descretion.



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User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3443 times:

It's always been my understanding that yes, Dispatchers are considered 'crew members' in the eye of the FAA as they are required as part of the process. You only need three things to fly part 121... Pilots, Mechanics, Dispatchers. Also, Dispatchers are only allowed to cockpit jumpseat when they are on their recurrent training. I know this thread will open the door again to the whole 'who's allowed'.. but all that really comes down to this...

1) Above all... the Capt must say yes... (even if all requirments are met, the Capt can still say no)
2) You must be on a VERY small list that even allows you to be in the cockpit in flight...
3) You must have a need / reason to be there....(no free or joy rides)
4) In most all cases, there can not be an open seat out back...



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineAirTran737 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3702 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3442 times:
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Quoting EMBQA (Reply 3):
Dispatchers are only allowed to cockpit jumpseat when they are on their recurrent training. I know this thread will open the door again to the whole 'who's allowed'.. but all that really comes down to this...

If you are in the CASS system then you can sit in the cockpit. Dispatchers sit in offline cockpits all the time.



Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
User currently offlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5970 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3407 times:



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 3):
Dispatchers are only allowed to cockpit jumpseat when they are on their recurrent training.

3) You must have a need / reason to be there....(no free or joy rides)

That depends on the carrier, and the management philosophy.

Some are anal and only want you to do your required and nothing more. (The only one I can think of that use this one are owned by, or are related to, an airline whose first initial is A, and last initial is A.)

Some want you up there whenever you can, but only want you to log the hours you need. (Majors, regionals, and cargo airlines.)

Many fall somewhere in-between.



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User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3400 times:



Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 5):
That depends on the carrier, and the management philosophy.

The FAR is pretty clear on this one. You need to be there for a reason.



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5970 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3364 times:

To quote the whole regulation:

§ 121.547 Admission to flight deck.

(a) No person may admit any person to the flight deck of an aircraft unless the person being admitted is--

(1) A crewmember;

(2) An FAA air carrier inspector, a DOD commercial air carrier evaluator, or an authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board, who is performing official duties;

(3) Any person who--

(i) Has permission of the pilot in command, an appropriate management official of the part 119 certificate holder, and the Administrator; and

(ii) Is an employee of--

(A) The United States, or

(B) A part 119 certificate holder and whose duties are such that admission to the flightdeck is necessary or advantageous for safe operation; or

(C) An aeronautical enterprise certificated by the Administrator and whose duties are such that admission to the flightdeck is necessary or advantageous for safe operation.

(4) Any person who has the permission of the pilot in command, an appropriate management official of the part 119 certificate holder and the Administrator. Paragraph (a)(2) of this section does not limit the emergency authority of the pilot in command to exclude any person from the flightdeck in the interests of safety.

(b) For the purposes of paragraph (a)(3) of this section, employees of the United States who deal responsibly with matters relating to safety and employees of the certificate holder whose efficiency would be increased by familiarity with flight conditions, may be admitted by the certificate holder. However, the certificate holder may not admit employees of traffic, sales, or other departments that are not directly related to flight operations, unless they are eligible under paragraph (a)(4) of this section.

(c) No person may admit any person to the flight deck unless there is a seat available for his use in the passenger compartment, except--

(1) An FAA air carrier inspector, a DOD commercial air carrier evaluator, or authorized representative of the Administrator or National Transportation Safety Board who is checking or observing flight operations;

(2) An air traffic controller who is authorized by the Administrator to observe ATC procedures;

(3) A certificated airman employed by the certificate holder whose duties require an airman certificate;

(4) A certificated airman employed by another part 119 certificate holder whose duties with that part 119 certificate holder require an airman certificate and who is authorized by the part 119 certificate holder operating the aircraft to make specific trips over a route;

(5) An employee of the part 119 certificate holder operating the aircraft whose duty is directly related to the conduct or planning of flight operations or the in-flight monitoring of aircraft equipment or operating procedures, if his presence on the flightdeck is necessary to perform his duties and he has been authorized in writing by a responsible supervisor, listed in the Operations Manual as having that authority; and

(6) A technical representative of the manufacturer of the aircraft or its components whose duties are directly related to the in-flight monitoring of aircraft equipment or operating procedures, if his presence on the flightdeck is necessary to perform his duties and he has been authorized in writing by the Administrator and by a responsible supervisor of the operations department of the part 119 certificate holder, listed in the Operations Manual as having that authority.

---------------------------------------------------

See the italicized section of (b)(5). Further, the OpSpecs clearly spell out how the carrier may conduct its operation, and the FOM further clarifies that, and in the case of the OpSpecs and FOM I use, the VP of flight ops makes the decisions that effect the FOM. According to the FOM, approved by the FAA, he has placed no restrictions on dispatchers, allowing us to jumpseat when we want to, and where we want to (with PIC approval,) regardless of whether a seat is open in the back or not; No limitations. I've seen that several of the majors are the same way. If your airline does not do this, then sucks for you, but don't preach it as gospel truth.

Furthermore, if the letter of the law were followed as you have interpreted it, then no one would be commuting. Pilots could not hitch a ride in the jump seat to their base, and dispatchers could not fulfill their job description if flights were oversold and overweight, leading them to disqualification.



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User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3353 times:



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 6):
The FAR is pretty clear on this one. You need to be there for a reason.

My reason is usually that I showed up and wanted the seat... I've yet to run into the Reason Police....  Wink


User currently offline737tdi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 785 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3324 times:
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I believe if a person meets the requirements of the applicable FAR, it then comes down to the policy of the operator... As OPNLguy said, no reason is required, if the jumpseat is open and I request it, I have always been allowed although I'm a mechanic not a dispatcher.

737tdi


User currently offlineStratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1651 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3288 times:



Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 4):
If you are in the CASS system then you can sit in the cockpit. Dispatchers sit in offline cockpits all the time.

Don't know about other airlines but at NW after 9/11. If you are offline CASS or not jumpseaters dispatcher or even pilots have to take an open seat in the cabin with the exception of airlink pilots who I believe are still allowed in the cockpit only after all cabin seats are taken.



NWA THE TRUE EVIL EMPIRE
User currently offlineDispatcher From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 253 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3271 times:



Quoting FXfan (Thread starter):
Are dispatchers considered crew members?

At my employer were are considered 'Additional Crew Members' when on a required or elective familiarization ride and listed on the flight release as ACM's not jumpseaters.

Quoting FXfan (Thread starter):
can they jumpseat on most airlines?

Yes we can.

Quoting FXfan (Thread starter):
if so, are they CASS approved?

Unfortunately, we are not. Hopefully will change soon.


User currently offlineJayDub From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3267 times:



Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 8):
My reason is usually that I showed up and wanted the seat...

Ditto...lately, if it weren't for the good folks at WN, DL, and UA allowing my company's dispatchers on the flight deck when no other seat is available...I would still be stuck at an airport somewhere ("CASS Saved My Ass"). Also, as a believer in non-rev karma...if I am higher priority than someone else on the non-rev list, but my taking the flight deck jumpseat will keep someone from being left behind, you better believe I will take that seat up front to help my fellow non-rev.

When anyone is on the jumpseat...be it a pilot, dispatcher, mechanic, FAA, company exec, etc...they ARE considered an additional crew member, no matter what company they are with, and can be called upon to take on any tasks the captain may deem necessary.

As a common courtesy, even when riding in the cabin, I always check in with the flight deck to let them know I'm there and to thank them for the ride. On more than one occasion, I have been asked if I would rather ride up front. Some pilots just like the conversation...and they know dispatchers tend to know the most current company/industry rumours and gossip.  Smile


User currently offlineDispatchguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1249 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3221 times:

Quoting JayDub (Reply 12):
Some pilots just like the conversation...and they know dispatchers tend to know the most current company/industry rumours and gossip.

And, more importantly, that brat in 9B wont be kicking the back of your seat for the entire flight!

[Edited 2007-12-08 12:43:36]


Nobody screws you better than an airline job!
User currently offlineJayDub From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3152 times:



Quoting Stratosphere (Reply 10):

I know this is taking the thread a little off topic, but....

The general rule for our dispatchers is to stay away from Red Tails and nAAzis when it comes to hitching a ride via jumpseat agreement.

Don't know how true it is, but the story here has always been that one of our dispatchers jumpseated on AA a few years ago and was more than welcome according to the captain. Our pilots have a jumpseat agreement with AA and usually we piggyback on those agreements. However, a couple weeks later, apparently our JS Coordinator received a letter stating that, if another one of our dispatchers tries to jumpseat on AA, they would cancel the pilot agreement.

They should all be like WN. So easy. Walk up, ask to hitch a ride per agreement, fill out jumpseat card, show passport if CASS check is needed, introduce self to captain and request a ride....and done. I've never been grilled about why I can't get a ride with my own airline or been given the silent treatment enroute with WN crews.


User currently offlineDispatchguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1249 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 3139 times:

Quoting JayDub (Reply 14):
Don't know how true it is, but the story here has always been that one of our dispatchers jumpseated on AA a few years ago and was more than welcome according to the captain. Our pilots have a jumpseat agreement with AA and usually we piggyback on those agreements. However, a couple weeks later, apparently our JS Coordinator received a letter stating that, if another one of our dispatchers tries to jumpseat on AA, they would cancel the pilot agreement.

I would concur.

Several years ago, I dispatched for AAEagle in DFW. Was trying to get on one of the hundred or so it seems Maddogs from ORD to DFW commuting to work.

Politely ask the agent for a 1W, agent gives me the BP, and I head down the jetway.

Politely ask the captain for a ride (back was full), and the captain proceeds to tell me that he doesnt carry Eagle, and to get off his airplane.

I politely tell him that I work our Caribbean operation, that our pilots cant steal APA jobs in the Caribbean, and to have a nice flight. I saunter over to the UA 330p Airbus, and the captain bends over backwards and gets me onboard, going so far to ask a fellow UA pilot to ride on pass so I can take the only OMC. I volunteered to pay his pass cost, but he said no.

I have had pilots call me in dispatch and ask if an Eagle dispatcher can ride jumpseat - and I always tell them "its your call captain, but I cant ride his airplane"

I love SWA and their open jumpseating policy - easiest airline to ride with, just have to ask for a seat in "first class" ATA was also great.

As for NWA, from what I understand, dispatcher jumpseating is all subject to the TWU, for the TWU local controls which airlines get on the NWA Dispatcher jumpseating list, and which dont. The NWA ALPA jumpseat list is pilots only at NWA.

[Edited 2007-12-09 07:23:44]


Nobody screws you better than an airline job!
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3114 times:

Glad to have you all aboard at SWA...

NWA and AAL used to be bears, but AAL has gotten better in more recent years with several of my compatriots having used them. Haven't used NWA for awhile so I don't know if they've gotten any better, or are as previously described here.

Back when Piedmont was around, I went out to DFW to catch one of their flights and was down in ops getting my paperwork, when the captain came down. I introduced myself, and in addition to my SWA ID he wanted to see my dispatcher's license. (This was kind of odd in the pre-9/11 era). I showed it him and he apologized, saying he was just trying to be careful. He said that a few weeks earlier, and agent somewhere had run a last-minute jumpseater (FDX) down the jetway minutes before push. Full flight, they strapped him in up front and launched. Just after level-off, the captain struck up a conversation with "what equipment are you on" and came to find out that the FDX fellow drove a delivery truck and wasn't a pilot or dispatcher....  Wink


User currently offlineStratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1651 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3062 times:



Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 16):
Just after level-off, the captain struck up a conversation with "what equipment are you on" and came to find out that the FDX fellow drove a delivery truck and wasn't a pilot or dispatcher....

Funny you should mention that..I remember when I worked at NWA this was quite a few years ago well pre 9/11 and the same thing happened on an NWA flight in fact they had the cops meet the airplane I wonder if it was the same guy.



NWA THE TRUE EVIL EMPIRE
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 18, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3056 times:



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 3):
Dispatchers are only allowed to cockpit jumpseat when they are on their recurrent training.

How often do dispatchers need to do their checkrides? Does it depend on the airline?



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineSDF880 From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 130 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3049 times:



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 18):

US FAR requires once a year with 5 hours observing time which can be reduced by one hour for each additional landing. My airline requires this plus if international dispatcher qualified then an international ride is required on an ETOPS flight. I cannot do my ride in the sim, I must go out on the line at least once a year. All of the airlines I have worked for followed this same policy.

rgds,

SDF880


User currently offlineDispatcher From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 253 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2980 times:



Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 16):
(FDX) down the jetway minutes before push. Full flight, they strapped him in up front and launched. Just after level-off, the captain struck up a conversation with "what equipment are you on" and came to find out that the FDX fellow drove a delivery truck and wasn't a pilot or dispatcher....

Wow, I love it when one person can make a whole company look like a bunch of goofs. I wonder what kind of friendly letter FDX got for that stunt. In a bit of a nod to the off chance he was simply confused, pre 9-11 he would have been sitting in the cockpit of one of FDX's jets as well and maybe he thought he had that privilidge everywhere he went. Not an excuse, and I'm sure he was probably a scammer anyway, but just a possible explanation. Of course I have heard of people with a valid airline ID and a dispatch license who don't work as dispatchers worming their way on to flights in the past. That was defineatly a bad call and if caught they should be terminated and prosecuted.


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 21, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2965 times:



Quoting SDF880 (Reply 19):

So what do you guys do while doing your checkrides? Just sit in the cockpit listening in on ATC stuff?



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineDispatchguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1249 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 2959 times:

Depends.

When I did a JS ride into ASE a few years back with a BAe146 operator, it was such an eye-opener as to how the mountains were almost on top of the field - it really changed the way I dispatched the ASE trips - much more conservative.

The captain of that flight was a check airman, and while the FO was flying the overhead visual, the captain was pointing out all of the celebs houses on the side of the mountain, the ski resorts and such. The familiarization tape I saw in training just didnt do it justice.

I can look at the Jepps and see how the traffic patterns are into a given airport, say ORD, but actually listening to the nonstop delivery of the approach controller while you are in the jumpseat, gives you a whole new appreciation.

Plus, for some types of operations, specific rides on that type of operation, whether ETOPS, a GPS-only nav legs, Long Range Ops, are required before you can dispatch that type of operation.

It's a nice way to get out of the office for a day or two. Get the gouge as to who the good captains are that you want to fly with (and the bad to avoid - there are those) figure out the operationally interesting airports are (short runways, nasty approaches, or busy hubs are fun), determine the actual requirements, and go fly  Smile



Nobody screws you better than an airline job!
User currently offlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5970 posts, RR: 14
Reply 23, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 2955 times:

When it comes to our annuals, a lot of cruise time is spent doing a Q&A type session. This way both sides can get a better picture as to why certain things are done.

Of course, there's always the crews that only want to talk about their personal lives.  banghead 



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User currently offlineDispatchguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1249 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2947 times:



Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 23):
Of course, there's always the crews that only want to talk about their personal lives.

Or pilot union BS...



Nobody screws you better than an airline job!
25 SDF880 : Depends on the crew. Most of them once up to cruise altitude talk about anything and everything. I just took my ride last month and I got a good syst
26 JayDub : This is exactly how a dispatcher should plan their yearly JS time. I always try to do my JS time into somewhere I haven't been before...and places th
27 Post contains images Dispatcher : I seem to spend a lot of my time wondering if I should mention the ATC call they just missed while discussing the finer points of the latest contract.
28 Post contains images OPNLguy : Personally, I always try to do rides so as to be in thunderstorms, fog, or winter conditions. Those are the "big three" weather headaches in a dispat
29 Dispatcher : Just curious, how do you go about planning this? We generally book our flights through our jumpseat reservation system up to a week in advance making
30 JayDub : We are CAT II, so nothing that spectacular, but I have been along for a ride where we shot down to CAT II mins in ATL. Definitely an eye opener. I've
31 Post contains images OPNLguy : We have a hotline to the Almighty, and I just ring Him up and custom order the weather I'm looking for.... Seriously, I just wait until the weather I
32 Goldenshield : You worship Kavorous?
33 Post contains images Dispatchguy : Better than worshipping the great and all powerful Bornemann! Happy Festivus
34 Post contains images Goldenshield : Well, as a whole, we could always be doing it hard-core command-line style, a la, Northwest.
35 JayDub : All hail Meteorologix and their mighty RAMTAF.
36 Bwi757 : Sorry to chime in late here, what is CASS? I can then say I learned something new today Thanks BWI757
37 FXRA : CASS is the multi airline indentification system thats in place to allow pilots and dispatchers from other airlines to ride in cockpit jumpseats on ot
38 SDF880 : I did that once after center called 3 times. The F/O on IOE turned and burned a hole right thru me. I'll never do that again unless we are about to m
39 Post contains images OPNLguy : Hell of an attitude for someone on IOE... At a former airline, I was jumping TOL-TPA, and on the climb through FL180 I noticed that nobody reset thei
40 SDF880 : Ya you are right most of them do encourage you to point out anything wrong or traffic when they are looking for it. I have had a few times where the
41 Post contains images Dispatcher : The couple times I've had it happen I've just innocently said "Were they talking to us?" at which point they've always caught the next call without a
42 CosmicCruiser : I've had a couple of you guys on my J/S and we all had a great flight. Dispatchers get to see what really happens on a flight both good and bad and t
43 Post contains images OPNLguy : Thanks for an enlightened and constructive attitude! You're also welcome to come sit with the dispatcher on his/her shift, and see what goes on from
44 Goldenshield : I think there's a law on that one: 1) When everything is going your way, you will never get call. 2) When the situation gets to where you and everyon
45 OPNLguy : There's another one... 3) When you initiate an ACARS message to update delay info and avoid a phone call, you'll get the phone call anyways just so t
46 SDF880 : I really love it when in addition to the captain and F/O and even the F/E on the few classics we still have all calling me for the EDCT I sometimes g
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